Your Ad Here Your Ad Here
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 21

Thread: I Love Canadians, I Really Do...

  1. #1
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Oh, please...
    Posts
    15,254
    Another column; sorry, but it seemed relevant to Alex's post in another thread.

    Free Health Care
    by Walter E. Williams

    Let's start out by not quibbling with America's socialists' false claim that health-care service is a human right that people should have regardless of whether they can pay for it or not - it should be free. Before we buy into this socialist agenda, we might check out just what happens when health-care services are "free." Let's look at our neighbor to the north - Canada.

    The Fraser Institute, a Vancouver, British Columbia-based think tank, has done yeomen's work keeping track of Canada's socialized health-care system. It has just come out with its 13th annual waiting-list survey. It shows that the average time a patient waited between referral from a general practitioner to treatment rose from 16.5 weeks in 2001-02 to 17.7 weeks in 2003. Saskatchewan had the longest average waiting time of nearly 30 weeks while Ontario had the shortest, 14 weeks.

    Waiting lists also exist for diagnostic procedures such as computer tomography (CT), magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), and ultrasound. Depending on what province and the particular diagnostic procedure, the waiting times can range from two to 24 weeks.

    As reported in a December 2003 story by Kerri Houston for the Frontiers of Freedom Institute titled "Access Denied: Canada's Healthcare System Turns Patients into Victims" (http://ff.org/centers/ccfsp/pdf/ccsfp-1203-pp.pdf), in some instances, patients die on the waiting list because they become too sick to tolerate a procedure. Houston says that hip-replacement patients often end up non-ambulatory while waiting an average of 20 weeks for the procedure, and that's after having waited 13 weeks just to see the specialist. The wait to get diagnostic scans followed by the wait for the radiologist to read them just might explain why Cleveland, Ohio, has become Canada's hip-replacement center.

    Adding to Canada's medical problems is the exodus of doctors. According to a March 2003 story in Canada News (www.canoe.ca), about 10,000 doctors left Canada during the 1990s. Compounding the exodus of doctors is the drop in medical school graduates. According to Houston, Ontario has chosen to turn to nurses to replace its bolting doctors. It's "creating" 369 new positions for nurse practitioners to take up the slack for the doctor shortage.

    Some patients avoided long waits for medical services by paying for private treatment. In 2003, the government of British Columbia enacted Bill 82, an "Amendment to Strengthen Legislation and Protect Patients." On its face, Bill 82 is to "protect patients from inadvertent billing errors". That's on its face. But according to a January 2004 article written by Nadeem Esmail, for the Fraser Institute's Forum titled "Oh To Be A Prisoner," Bill 82 would disallow anyone from paying the clinical fees for private surgery, where previously only the patients themselves were forbidden from doing so. The bill also gives the government the power to levy fines of up to $20,000 on physicians who accept these fees or allow such a practice to occur. That means it is now against Canadian law to opt out of the Canadian health care system and pay for your own surgery.

    Health care can have a zero price to the user, but that doesn't mean it's free or has a zero cost. The problem with a good or service having a zero price is that demand is going to exceed supply. Since price isn't allowed to make demand equal supply, other measures must be taken. One way to distribute the demand over a given supply is through queuing - making people wait. Another way is to have a medical czar who decides who is eligible, under what conditions, for a particular procedure -- for example, no hip replacement or renal dialysis for people over 70 or no heart transplants for smokers.

    I'm wondering just how many Americans would like Canada's long waiting lists, medical czars deciding what treatments we get and an exodus of doctors.

    Walter E. Williams
    “Think about how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of 'em are stupider than that.” -George Carlin

  2. The Drawing Room   -   #2
    Rat Faced's Avatar Broken
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Newcasil
    Age
    52
    Posts
    9,076
    As I said in the other thread...

    Having a Universal Free Health Service does not stop you going Private if you wish.

    It actually makes the Insurance Premiums cheaper, than if you have to buy Medical Insurance.

    It would cost me around $40 per month for full cover Private Medical Insurance, or i could pay for stuff as i needed it.

    I believe the rate per person goes down for family cover..but i havent looked into that.

    An It Harm None, Do What You Will

  3. The Drawing Room   -   #3
    Biggles's Avatar Looking for loopholes
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Scotland
    Age
    60
    Posts
    8,804
    J2

    Have you used this Walter Mitty guy before? His name seems familar.

    I am off to Google "Frontiers for Freedom" (or was that a typo and it is a plastic surgery hospital "Front Ears for Freedom"). I am just curious
    Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum


  4. The Drawing Room   -   #4
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Oh, please...
    Posts
    15,254
    Originally posted by Rat Faced@30 July 2004 - 15:37
    As I said in the other thread...

    Having a Universal Free Health Service does not stop you going Private if you wish.

    Did you read this part, Rat?

    Some patients avoided long waits for medical services by paying for private treatment. In 2003, the government of British Columbia enacted Bill 82, an "Amendment to Strengthen Legislation and Protect Patients." On its face, Bill 82 is to "protect patients from inadvertent billing errors". That's on its face. But according to a January 2004 article written by Nadeem Esmail, for the Fraser Institute's Forum titled "Oh To Be A Prisoner," Bill 82 would disallow anyone from paying the clinical fees for private surgery, where previously only the patients themselves were forbidden from doing so. The bill also gives the government the power to levy fines of up to $20,000 on physicians who accept these fees or allow such a practice to occur. That means it is now against Canadian law to opt out of the Canadian health care system and pay for your own surgery.

    In any case, were I to find my way back to my Civil Service past, I could have insurance.

    I could neither find nor afford insurance in any other circumstance.

    If I were dirt-poor, I'd be all set.

    In any case, I am alive, and that's kind of important; if I had to wait like a Canadian, I wouldn't be here.

    Example:

    In Canada, you wait (according to the Fraser Institute) two to twenty-four weeks for a CT scan.

    My Doctor decided I needed a CT scan, and I was undergoing the procedure about fifteen minutes later.

    I should also point out that I live in a village of about 1800 people, and the largest city of any size whatsoever (Green Bay, Wisconsin) is 180 miles away.
    “Think about how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of 'em are stupider than that.” -George Carlin

  5. The Drawing Room   -   #5
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Oh, please...
    Posts
    15,254
    Originally posted by Biggles@30 July 2004 - 15:42
    J2

    Have you used this Walter Mitty guy before? His name seems familar.

    Yes I have; just the other day, I think.
    “Think about how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of 'em are stupider than that.” -George Carlin

  6. The Drawing Room   -   #6
    Biggles's Avatar Looking for loopholes
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Scotland
    Age
    60
    Posts
    8,804
    Walter is a free market economist, the Frontier chaps are right wing think tankers (both have Ronnie Reagan on their home pages ) and the Fraser Institute is a charmingly polite (Canadian) free market econometrics think tank, akin to the Adam Smith institute.

    The only surprise is that the conclusion did not warn against rampant bubonic plague in all National Health hospitals.

    I may be wrong, but if the Canadian NHS is like the UK one, a heart attack victim generally gets seen right away rather than asked to wait 2 to 20 weeks.
    Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum


  7. The Drawing Room   -   #7
    vidcc's Avatar there is no god
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,630
    I am not at all amazed by the report from this guy. He has an economic brain and not a humanistic brain.
    the statisics quoted don't say what the waiting lists were for. In your case J2 you would have been seen by your doctor and if you needed immediate treatment you would get it. Social systems don't send out ambulances for bunions.
    Even with our system a lot depends on location as to speed of treatment. In my town we have one hospital and it doesn't take medicare or medicaid. Obviously the law dictates emergency treatment but one is then transfered to Albuquerque.
    I've heard people state that if one has no insurance and can't afford to see a doctor one can always walk into an emergency room and be treated, but this is for emergencies. If you have a non emegency condition you have to wait until it becomes so. (a lot would depend on the hospitals policies).
    Our system penalises people without insurance. If you have no insurance and are a "cash customer" you may find that your bill is 5 times higher than a hospital would charge an insurance company for the same treatment.

    i am not saying that social is better from the world examples that have it but i am not saying it's worse. Social systems can be their worst enemy because they don't run as efficiently as a private system needs to and this diverts money away from the treatment and into red tape.
    Here in America we have the ability to run a system of healthcare that could be free at point of service and be run with private efficiency.... but we don't and probably never will because there is too much money being made to change the status quo.
    One of the reasons for Clintons failed reforms was that profits would be reduced.
    Another reason is the American fear of TAX. It doesn't matter that they could save thousands of dollars in insurance costs, they pay tax already and don't want to pay any more.
    The mere suggestion that 5 cents on a gallon of gas could give every child under 18 and every adult over 65 FREE prescriptions even with the overpricing we have... oh the outrage

    it’s an election with no Democrats, in one of the whitest states in the union, where rich candidates pay $35 for your votes. Or, as Republicans call it, their vision for the future.

  8. The Drawing Room   -   #8
    MagicNakor's Avatar On the Peripheral
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    5,401
    Originally posted by Biggles@30 July 2004 - 22:18
    ...I may be wrong, but if the Canadian NHS is like the UK one, a heart attack victim generally gets seen right away rather than asked to wait 2 to 20 weeks.
    No, you aren't wrong. The only "wait time" there would be waiting for the ambulance to arrive. That'd be twenty minutes for me, but the first response team from the fire-hall would be there in perhaps a minute. The seriousness of the ailment determines your "place in line."

    things are quiet until hitler decides he'd like to invade russia
    so, he does
    the russians are like "OMG WTF D00DZ, STOP TKING"
    and the germans are still like "omg ph34r n00bz"
    the russians fall back, all the way to moscow
    and then they all begin h4xing, which brings on the russian winter
    the germans are like "wtf, h4x"
    -- WW2 for the l33t

  9. The Drawing Room   -   #9
    Rat Faced's Avatar Broken
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Newcasil
    Age
    52
    Posts
    9,076
    vidcc,

    the irony is that the US Government already pays more % of GDP on health care than most of Europe (a lot more than the UK).... so they wouldnt have to pay more Tax for a Universal Health Service thats free at point of contact.

    You said yourself the reason that they dont... they are getting ripped off by the Medical Professions and Pharmacutical Companies.. "Profit".

    Most things in the US are a lot cheaper than elsewhere... the same cannot be said for Medicine's. Even basic prescription drugs are sold in the US for a lot more than anywhere else...

    If someone is stupid enough to pay over the top, the Pharmacutical Companies will try and keep that status quo going, thats Capitalism

    I think they spend a fortune stopping people going to Canada to get the same drugs at a vastly reduced rate, as this is their closest neighbour.

    I would be surprised if visitors to Europe didnt also take advantage of the cost of Low Price Prescription Drugs, however there are a lot fewer US citizens come over to Europe and none for just that reason... its more expensive to get here

    @ J2K4,

    I dont know the Canadian Health Laws, however I would be surprised if the Private Sector could not provide Health Care. Certainly I cant think of any European Countries that dont allow Private Health Care.

    As I said before, the provision of Free Health Care actually makes the costs of Private come down quite a lot.. They can no longer charge what they want, and pitch the Insurance Policies and Treatment at a realistic level.

    They still make huge Profits BTW, its not a strangled profession in any way shape or form. Anyone in the UK will tell you the Private Hospitals are much better.

    I suspect that this may not be the case in Germany, France, Belgium or many of the other Mainland Europe Health Services, as they do spend more % of GPD on their respective services than we do.

    An It Harm None, Do What You Will

  10. The Drawing Room   -   #10
    Biggles's Avatar Looking for loopholes
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Scotland
    Age
    60
    Posts
    8,804
    RF

    Likewise, I am sure I saw a piece on TV on the number of pharmacies just over the border in Mexico. The sole purpose of these shops is to cash in on the US market.
    Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum


Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •