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Thread: Equality run amok!

  1. #1
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
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    Here is another view on the current school-of-thought:

    Equality Run Amok

    Joseph Sobran

    September 21, 2004

    In a recent column I made an observation about the vocal “gay community” that may bear amplification.

    On the one hand, these advocates tell us — us presumptive “straights” — that people’s “sexual orientation” should be of no concern to us.

    Then they turn around and tell us that their “orientation” is the most important thing in the world to them — the very source of their “identity” and a matter of “pride.”

    So it should matter to us not at all, though it means everything to them. But isn’t what a man considers an all-important fact about himself something other people should take into account when dealing with him?

    Serious Christians consider their religion the most important thing in their lives, the defining fact of their existence. They don’t say non-Christians should regard this as a trivial fact about them. That would be nonsense.

    Furthermore, the “gays” (as distinct from quiet homosexuals) make demands on the rest of us that require us to take notice of them — such as their current clamor for redefining marriage to include same-sex unions, a change whose ramifications, for all of us, would be vast and unpredictable. We are still supposed to regard their “orientation” as insignificant to us?

    Such minorities — “gays” being only one example — want it both ways. They complain about the way they’re perceived, as if they’d prefer to be invisible; then they try to create new, highly visible, and of course totally favorable perceptions of themselves. They want to supplant “negative stereotypes” with what they call “positive images,” which are usually far more unrealistic than the old stereotypes.

    The “color-blind” liberalism of the last generation insisted that ethnic differences shouldn’t matter. The “civil rights” era taught us, with endless and eloquent propaganda, that “race” was an utterly unscientific concept, even though it was transpiring that racial distinctions weren’t just social conventions; some diseases struck blacks but not whites, Jews but not non-Jews. All the neat little lessons about “skin color” were ignoring deep mysteries of human nature.

    Other complications arose too, making these subjects hopelessly confusing to anyone who had believed the propaganda. Dissent — mere critical analysis of minority claims — was presumed to spring from bigotry, a presumption that made public discussion almost futile. “Affirmative action” and Zionism made you wonder what the slogans of democracy and equality really meant. Were some groups exempt from the principle of equal rights and equal treatment under the law? What about the idea that “double standards” were bad?

    Then there was sex — or rather, as it was now often called, “gender.” The two sexes had always been regarded as pretty obviously different — seriously different. But suddenly they weren’t. The feminism of the last generation all but denied la difference. At least when la difference was to the disadvantage of women; when equality worked against women, it was another story. Police, the military, and other institutions lowered their standards so men wouldn’t monopolize the jobs.

    Far from simplifying everything, as “progressive” rhetoric had promised, equality created a chaos of new rules, laws, and anomalous exceptions, as when “transsexuals” got into the act. (Only a liberal can believe that a man becomes a woman by having himself surgically mutilated — as if sex is defined by genitalia alone.)

    It was often apparent that what “minorities” were after was not equality, but privileged treatment. Or, in a word, power.

    The blandly abstract language of equality usually conceals specific interests. Civil rights, it’s now clear to everyone, means certain black interests; nobody takes it to mean anything else. When whites hear about a new “civil-rights measure,” they don’t imagine it means their rights are going to be protected; on the contrary, they know instantly that it means further violations of their privacy, freedom of association, property rights, access to jobs, and so forth.

    Sexual orientation likewise means certain homosexual interests; it doesn’t cover, say, guys with a thing for blondes, even if this happens to be a source of “identity” and “pride” for them; the government doesn’t yet cater to the “blonde-loving community.”

    The seemingly universal principle nearly always turns out to mean what's good for very specific groups. The seemingly simple principle can wind up bringing havoc to law and clear thought. One superfluous principle, however noble or innocuous it sounds, can eventually undermine an entire way of life.

    Joseph Sobran
    “Think about how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of 'em are stupider than that.” -George Carlin

  2. The Drawing Room   -   #2
    vidcc's Avatar there is no god
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    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4
    Google does not constitute reason or truth; think for yourself.
    ............

    it’s an election with no Democrats, in one of the whitest states in the union, where rich candidates pay $35 for your votes. Or, as Republicans call it, their vision for the future.

  3. The Drawing Room   -   #3
    Busyman's Avatar Use Logic Or STFU!!!
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    That article is mostly bullshit.

    It makes a few good points (like uh 2 or something).

    A gay wants to be treated with equality. That article is saying the gay person makes a big deal that they are gay. No, they make a big deal because they are treated unequally because they are gay. The article is full of bullshit spin.

    Apply the same to racism.

    I do like the points about police and military regarding women and also regarding transexuals.

    At Verizon if you can't pass pole climbing then you can't be a telecom technician. Very simple. There is no women's pole climbing test because there's no women's specific pole to climb. It's about safety. Can't pass the test?.....then you do not have what is required to do the job.

    The Olympics are now allowing transexuals provided they follow certain requirements or guidelines. I think the requirement has to do with the length of time after surgery and length of hormone therapy. That is BULLSHIT!!!

    There is a separation of gender in sports for a reason. It offers a level paying field due to strength and physiological differences. Hormone therapy and a knife do not change one's chromosomes (XX, XY and variations thereof). Also this hormone therapy effectively amounts to drugging.....something that the Olympics is not to keen on.
    Silly bitch, your weapons cannot harm me. Don't you know who I am? I'm the Juggernaut, Bitchhhh!

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  4. The Drawing Room   -   #4
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
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    B-

    I think the main (indeed the only) focus of the column is to point up the fact that an honest discussion of such subjects is impossible, and to attempt same is considered presumptively racist/sexist/homophobic.
    “Think about how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of 'em are stupider than that.” -George Carlin

  5. The Drawing Room   -   #5
    Busyman's Avatar Use Logic Or STFU!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4
    B-

    I think the main (indeed the only) focus of the column is to point up the fact that an honest discussion of such subjects is impossible, and to attempt same is considered presumptively racist/sexist/homophobic.
    The reason I said the article is bullshit is because it points out the obvious but makes it seem trivial. Almost like, "Don't be this way and expect to get this out of it."

    On the one hand, these advocates tell us — us presumptive “straights” — that people’s “sexual orientation” should be of no concern to us.

    Then they turn around and tell us that their “orientation” is the most important thing in the world to them — the very source of their “identity” and a matter of “pride.”
    In most instances "blankblankblank" shouldn't be a concern to us. When one is discriminated against because of being "blankblankblank" then it is a concern.

    Honest discussion is easy.

    The reason, I for one, am against gay marriage, for instance, is it skews what marriage is for children.

    The more something is accepted, the more it is embraced.
    If a lifestyle is accepted it is easier to embrace as well.

    I don't agree with crazy laws like the sodomy law because that is in the privacy of their own home. Kids don't have to see it.

    When I start seeing books like "Kenny Has Two Fathers" in middle school then the school board can go fuck themselves.

    All this is coming from a man with no kids, mind you, and I don't have an optimistic view of the world.
    I personally think a strong family foundation is the only thing that can weather the upcoming storm that is...life in the future. Money doesn't hurt either).
    Last edited by Busyman; 10-07-2004 at 02:15 AM.
    Silly bitch, your weapons cannot harm me. Don't you know who I am? I'm the Juggernaut, Bitchhhh!

    Flies Like An Arrow, Flies Like An Apple
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  6. The Drawing Room   -   #6
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
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    Honest discussion is easy...?

    Maybe here, between us, but we are not the major media.

    If you ever see it, please let me know.

    'Night, B.
    “Think about how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of 'em are stupider than that.” -George Carlin

  7. The Drawing Room   -   #7
    manker's Avatar effendi
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    I liked Busyman's points here, nothing unusual there. Right up until the part where gay marriage was mentioned. Surely if one is championing equality by citing examples of pole climbing and the like then gay marriage is just the other side of the coin.

    What is there logically, not legally, to stop gay people getting married. Why should anyone be against it. There is nothing wrong with two people that love each other committing themselves in whichever way they choose. To hark 'Think of the children' is a cop out because as stated the children will see no wrong in it if it's accepted by their peers and their parents. Of course that isn't the case at the moment due to prejudice but it doesn't mean we should perpetuate this notion.

    I fail to see why we should educate, nay indoctrinate, our children into thinking that there is something inherently wrong with gay people such that they shouldn't be allowed to marry. If my son turned out to be gay then I would rather him going through school knowing he was a little different to most other kids in the sense that a ginger haired kid or a really tall boy knows he's a little different but he has the same basic opportunities, rather than knowing he's different because the law says so.

    Black, white, short, tall, gay, blonde. Pure genetics, no need for different rules.

    Lastly, what the hell is wrong with Kenny having two Fathers. One of my nieces has two Fathers; one natural, one adopted. She has a Mother too, lucky her. If her Mother dies then she would still have two Fathers who probably hate each other but she loves them both so they would be responsible, in some way, for bringing her up. Yet somehow this is more acceptable than a kid, who would otherwise be in an orphanage, having two male parents under the same roof that love each other. Bullshit.
    I plan on beating him to death with his kids. I'll use them as a bludgeon on his face. -

    --Good for them if they survive.

  8. The Drawing Room   -   #8
    Busyman's Avatar Use Logic Or STFU!!!
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    I do understand me not going along with gay marriage doesn't jibe with my more liberal views.
    The first thing is I don't think homosexuality is natural. People may say it is because it happens in nature but the primary function of sex is procreation.

    Second, I would rather scrap government recognized marriages altogether than say 2 men can marry. Marriage is a religious joining in my eyes. Government needs to figure out where this supposed separation between church and state is. Churches should also be taxed.

    "Kenny Has Two Fathers" has nothing to do with what you are talking about. I think you knew that seeing that the subject had to do with gay marriage. Obvious. I don't want that shit taught or handed out in middle schools. Damn!!

    You mentioned genetics. Homosexuality is a choice that involves one's feelings. I can't choose to be white unless I bleach my skin. If homosexuality is genetic then chronic lying is as well.

    Again,

    The more something is accepted, the more it is embraced.
    If a lifestyle is accepted it is easier to embrace as well.

    ...and children are influenced more easily than adults.
    Silly bitch, your weapons cannot harm me. Don't you know who I am? I'm the Juggernaut, Bitchhhh!

    Flies Like An Arrow, Flies Like An Apple
    ---12323---4552-----
    2133--STRENGTH--8310
    344---5--5301---3232

  9. The Drawing Room   -   #9
    vidcc's Avatar there is no god
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    Busy
    I remember in the past you suggesting that homosexuality can be learnt.

    Is there anyway you could be turned into a homosexual because of society accepting homosexuality as equal?

    Is there any way whatsoever that someone could turn you gay?


    If the answer is no:

    What makes you think that anyone else could be turned gay?

    The genetic arguement holds little grounds with me... yes we are male or female but that doesn't control thought. To me it is a sexual preference just like a preference for thin/fat/blonde/brunettes etc. with hetrosexuals.

    @j2
    I think the main (indeed the only) focus of the column is to point up the fact that an honest discussion of such subjects is impossible, and to attempt same is considered presumptively racist/sexist/homophobic.
    Well the attempt to discuss isn't considered (in my opinion) racist/sexist/homophobic but the attempt to deny equal rights certainly is.

    it’s an election with no Democrats, in one of the whitest states in the union, where rich candidates pay $35 for your votes. Or, as Republicans call it, their vision for the future.

  10. The Drawing Room   -   #10
    manker's Avatar effendi
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    It wouldn't bother me if the 'Kenny has two Fathers' book was handed out at school. At least if the kids had read something along those lines it would cut out the playground equivalent of 'omg wtf you got two Dads, freak'. Since, presumably, Kenny would be portrayed as a regular kid who liked video games and soccer.

    My two Fathers analogy was maybe a bit clumsy as I was too emotive but I meant to convey that having two Fathers (one substituting the Mother) as part of a nuclear family is somehow perceived to be less socially acceptable and probably more dysfunctional than a broken home. This is clearly rubbish.

    This part:
    Quote Originally Posted by Busyman
    The more something is accepted, the more it is embraced.
    If a lifestyle is accepted it is easier to embrace as well.
    ...and children are influenced more easily than adults.
    Is my point in the main, we should try to encourage our kids to accept homosexuality as we encourage them to accept other variants in society. We don't ask them to emulate fat kids, we just implore them not to poke fun at them, and it should be the same regarding gay folk. If this was prevalent among parents then this lifestyle will become more accepted and therefore easier to embrace.

    Homosexuality is not an option, unless you are talking of the act of copulation itself rather than the hardwired feelings and emotions. People are born gay, simple fact. You cannot choose to be gay, hetero or bisexual. You either want to hit someone, or ya don't. Thus it has to be natural, I guess also the primary function of sex isn't procreation, it's recreation. Up until recently procreation was the exact thing I was trying to avoid.

    For this reason, of an individual's inability to choose their sexual preference, homosexuals shouldn't be treated with distain, indeed they should be afforded the same rights, restrictions and privileges as the rest of society. Bar none.
    I plan on beating him to death with his kids. I'll use them as a bludgeon on his face. -

    --Good for them if they survive.

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