This Picture Breaks My Heart

[chev24grd]

This pic makes me sad. War has been waged since the dawn of time. There will never be peace as long as there is a difference of opinion. Pray for a quick end to this war. We will prevail.......Sadam must fall

[ne1GotZardoz]

Originally posted by Ardor+30 March 2003 - 17:45--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ardor @ 30 March 2003 - 17:45)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--kAb@30 March 2003 - 05:25
yes i&#39;m sure the u.s. government did sept 11 to raise the dollar.
i spit in your face ardor.

I never suggested that the US government manufactured sept. 11th. Where do you get that from? [/b][/quote]
Uh...Ardor...I think it was the post where you said The U. S. needed a solution and miraculously, the WTC happened.
Not too many ways to read that dude.

Sorry.

[kAb]

The Euro has been rising, and the Dollar sinking, reccession hits, America needs a solution.

Like magic, the WTC gets hit.

there you go ardor. read it.

i meant to post this earlier but the forum kept fucking up.

[sred2003]

man this is crazy. ppl posting that american press is only giving one side of the war and that maybe al jazeera would be better? are you kidding me. and why dont you show pictures of some of the vicious and disgusting things saddam has done TO HIS OWN PEOPLE. like how he puts humans through metal shredders or cuts out there tongues in their town square and lets everyone watch them bleed to death or tortures peoples children right in front of them to make them talk. some people were just waiting for images like that so they could point their fingers at america. and of course the gassing of his own people. i cant help the fact that people dislike america. i do know that we are doing the right thing by removing saddam and his regime and disarming them of WMD. i will never change any of your minds, of course but i must point out how absurd some things people say are.

[ne1GotZardoz]

Originally posted by sred2003@31 March 2003 - 01:26
man this is crazy. ppl posting that american press is only giving one side of the war and that maybe al jazeera would be better? are you kidding me. and why dont you show pictures of some of the vicious and disgusting things saddam has done TO HIS OWN PEOPLE. like how he puts humans through metal shredders or cuts out there tongues in their town square and lets everyone watch them bleed to death or tortures peoples children right in front of them to make them talk. some people were just waiting for images like that so they could point their fingers at america. and of course the gassing of his own people. i cant help the fact that people dislike america. i do know that we are doing the right thing by removing saddam and his regime and disarming them of WMD. i will never change any of your minds, of course but i must point out how absurd some things people say are.

Its not about changing people&#39;s minds, sred.

Its about people needing to stop hiding behind the past.

Or holding up another countries indiscretions to justify your own sadistic behavior.

Its about getting people to recognize Saddam&#39;s regime as the worst that humanity can offer, and letting them know that its wrong to tolerate that behavior.

They accuse us of clutching at any straw of information about them.

Quite the contrary is true.

They pick up on any small detail or our actions to justify their sadism.

We have quite a list building up, of their war crimes and crimes against humanity.

I&#39;m pretty sure our soldiers who were POWs are dead.

Why have they not allowed the Red Cross in to see them?

You wish to know why we are not posting pictures of what they have done though?

Its our own fault.

We closed that box on ourselves when we pitched a fit about the geneva convention, and them showing our POWs on tv, and our dead.

Up until that point, we were showing everything.
Even down to the POWs we have under guard.

Now we are suffering the consequences of that by not being able to show the man who died in the street with his tongue out, for example.

You&#39;re right.

War is crazy.

But it has begun.

Lets get it over with.

Peace dude

[eng60340]

ref ne1gotzardoz latest post.

keep thinking like that. and more wars will follow.
all in the name of american&#39;s humanity.

--
perhaps US should invade the other arab countries too.
the last i heard. they too are dictators that suppress their citizens

and may be you can have a swipe at iran and syria
invade them so that you can obtain the invoices proving that they supplied arms to iraq.

--
i wonder now. all these talk about for humanity...
why aren&#39;t the pope and the rest of the securtiy council/citizen of the world/UN supporting humanity ?

violence solves nothing.
enflame the arabs.
be prepared to be bombed in your backyard.

iraq is not a baby. it&#39;s a nation.
nation have a longer memory than a baby.
and it&#39;s not possible to disintegrate a nation unless you are considering genocide.

tell the iraq pple who&#39;s next of kin died because of the war that you are there to liberate them
tell them they should rejoice and welcome the US troops.

...
if you think this invasion will suppress terrorism .. think again
to do that effectively
US must conquer the globe and surplant the rogue nations&#39; leadership with american friendly ones
and whether these rogue nations have tyrannical leaders is secondary concerns so long as they are pro US.

---
as for anthrax in a letter..
i believe it&#39;s an american prank.
.. maybe US should consider invading herself.
and catch that prankster.
---

[ThE_MP3_G0d]

Originally posted by eng60340@26 March 2003 - 08:37
i am pretty pissed with the way cnn is reporting the news.
bbc is a little better.
but i feel that i am not getting the full unbiased picture most times..

too bad i dunno arabic else the al jazeera might be a good alternative.

btw. there&#39;s an english version of the website for al jazeera.. unfortunately it is not online now..
probably taken down by the govt.

so much for freedom of speech.

There is an English version of the Al Jazeera on the net....not censored(officially anyway) but rather hackers have had it down for a long time. I saw a post on a sercurity site(I can&#39;t recall which at this moment) about thier site being attacked (a "massive DDoS attack") and clicked on the link to the Al Jazeera site and it was up. The "news" I found there was very...wierd. I have read news reports with similar kinds of "spins" but jeez...retain some sort of credability here folks. If some of the things they had on their site was true, the Allies have already lost. Yes the Western media may focus on what the military wants them to but goodness.... anyone with an IQ at all would find the majority of what they had to say was utter El Toro Caca. The only article which had me curious was where they were discussing the possible Genova Convention violations by BOTH COUNTRIES. In the article they discussed that the US claimed that Iraqi forces violated it by showing videos of prisoners...I don&#39;t really have the entire convention memorized..... but that somehow the video was embarrasing or demeaning to the POWs and that was a violation of the convention. The Iraqis have claimed that the US has done the same thing to Iraqi POWs. I for one have seen like 10000 videos depicting Iraqi POWs being "herded" by US forces...none of them seemed "embarrased" or "demeaned" ....whatever the hell that would be... (do they like pull their pants down or what?? what exactly is in violation of that convention?)

but if anyone has the video of the US POWs that the US is calling a violation PLEASE SHARE IT. This is the one post on that entire site I can reasonably believe (with some proof). (edited April 2...and no...it&#39;s not a late joke) I was able to obtain videos of Iraqi TV. I will share them for the sake of knowledge, but I refuse to post a hash unless requested by forum admins to do so. I can say without a doubt that I am quite angry over what I saw. Yes, as I said in this post before, I have seen many, many Iraqi POWs being herded by US and Brittish forces but never before have I ever witnessed anything like that being done by them. The videos I saw had very, VERY graphic images of troops KIA.... and they even went to the extent of having some Iraqi FAG move the bodies so you were left with no doubt as to their identities or wounds...this is a disgrace..I can not find a place in my heart for any people that would tolerate this type of behaviour...End of edit

thx everyone...but especially Nikkid for removing that pic.....and no...that pic could be a result of something not even remotely associated with war...

[Ardor]

No, I did NOT say that the US flew into the WTC, it is the way YOU read it&#33; Magic can also be used in &#39;The man stood outside in the rain, and LIKE MAGIC, lightning hits&#39;. Did the man create the lightning? NO but it can be READ like he should not have stood in the rain.
But if that made you angry, you definitely won&#39;t like what I have to say next ;-)

OK the following is a rant on what I think about current events.

America has become a fascist state, dependant on propaganda and influencing public opinion at home. Whilst it should be a democracy, it has a federal state, seperate from the state(s) and difficult to put on a leash.

An example of propaganda would be &#39;Precision Missiles&#39;. When Rumsfeld gave his little speech about how this war would be like none before and we can&#39;t imaging how precise missiles have become, only government-buildings would be hit, the civilian infrastucture would be held intact&#33;

This reminded me of a commercial for washing-powder: &#39;Wash&Clean has the all improved formula. It wil clean that dirt of your clothes, while preserving and restoring colours prefectly. It is a washing powder like never experienced before. Out now&#33;&#39; You know what I do, when I see a commercial? I switch the channel&#33; Because I know in the small-print there&#39;s always some kind of disclaimer, denying that results will not actually look like in the actual commercial. In other words: Bullshit&#33;

Another example of propaganda is the images shown on CNN, Fox, etc. Basically the brave American, and little Iraqi children with chocolate in their faces screaming Americani, Americani. Is that objectivity for you? Or a Kurd catholic, naming his child &#39;Dick Cheney&#39; because it is so brave. And when someone shows a girl bleeding, its something you already saw on Rotten.com. And when Al Jazeera shows such images, it is an Iraqi propaganda machine and their site gets hacked. Who is the propaganda machine? Whatver happened to those reporters that showed pictures of alleged Terrorists at Quantanamo bay? Before you say, they were not War Criminals, read The relevant article, and I quote:

Article 5:
Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal.

Let&#39;s analyse the support for the US war. Spain: last time I checked 91% of the Spanish is AGAINST the war&#33; UK: Majority is AGAINST the war&#33; Australia: Majority is AGAINST the war&#33; Israel: Fascist states don&#39;t count&#33; Don&#39;t know about Portugal, do know that they all get something out of supporting, and it ain&#39;t world-democracy.

Let&#39;s think about about current events some more. Microsoft, a monopoly with an imperfect product, calls open-source software a virus. No one can deny that it is everything, Microsoft does NOT stand for. Warez: labeld as terrorism by several institutions who have a monopoly and overcharge customers. Giving stuff away for free? That is something corporations do NOT stand for. Investment into 3rd world countries? That is something the western world does NOT stand for&#33; A palestinian state? That is something Israel does not stand for&#33; Osama? Created for the very reason, that his leaders are controlled by money and are dictators&#33;

Fact is that ignoring all Bullshit political statements, the US has the most hated government in the world. And why not? It works on the principal, that might is right, whenever it has &#39;helped&#39; poorer nations it was either through supplying weapons, or loans which demanded huge concessions in return. It created drug-smuggling and drug-nations. How? By making it illegal, it made it the most overvalued substance in the world. Even shooting down a columbian plane, is ineffective, as selling 1/4th that planes content pays for another plane within a week.

It created dictators like Saddam, 1st by supporting him militarily against Iran, then imposing sanctions on Iraq making the Iraqis poorer and more dependant on Saddam then ever. Now they want to liberate Iraq? They will come in, put a military government in power, find another pro-american wuss for a leader like in Afghanistan and then leave. That&#39;s liberation for you? In the words of Raed: "How could “support democracy in Iraq” become to mean “bomb the hell out of Iraq”?" Answer: it is not about democracy, it is about pro-american spirit.

Fact is, that as long as the US keeps stepping on the rest of the world it will not be liked. Another fact is that by waging this illegal war, the US risks creating 1000s of more Osamas. Another fact is, that by going against the UN, it has opened a wide door for other countries to ignore the UN. In other words: Chaos&#33; People say the UN is ineffective. Yet it is an institution created for peace, has kept the peace for a long time, created the very lifeline (food for oil) which kept the Iraqi people alive, during the US&#39;s harsh sanctions. Only throgh support by it&#39;s members can an institution remain to be effective&#33;

What is democracy? Having a choice to say no. Why does Bush not bomb Florida? Because it is a democracy that prevents him from doing so. Why does the US not bomb Europe? Because 2/3rds of investment is foreign owned (dated 2000). Why is the majority of the US prison-population black? Because &#39;Might is Right&#39;&#33; Why does Isarel take more land away from Palestine everyday? Because &#39;Might is Right&#39;&#33;

What is democracy? Education&#33; Only through education could people wise up. Revolt against their governments if that government surpresses them. What does education bring? Peace&#33; An stupid man will grab his gun to solve conflicts, an intelligent man will use his head and his words. I&#39;ll be surprised if the US has ever introduced an infrastructure of providing education into a country it has bombed. Because that would actually be freedom and democracy&#33;

Back to terrorism&#33; South Africa, until 15 years ago: a surpressed nation. The African National Party (ANP), under Nelson Mandela, was labeld as terrorist organisation by the While National Party. Black people had no right, like Palestinians in Israel. In S.Africa it went pretty far, black people where shot, imprisoned, tortured. All rights to education was taken away.

The ANP did fight back however. They bombed important government buildings, some people where killed. Without exploring alternative means, the white government continued to surpress blacks and take more and more away from them: Land, education, rights. The black people were looked down upon, spat on, looked at like devils. It was only because the world continued to support Mandella and the African people, that finally Mandella was freed, and a joint government was created. But surpression still happens in Israel TODAY&#33;

Is the society we want to live in, one that is dominated by violence, by money, by blind conservatism? Or is it one that is based upon human values? One, where I respect you, and you respect me?


End Rant.

[Barbarossa]

Originally posted by Ardor@1 April 2003 - 12:15
No, I did NOT say that the US flew into the WTC, it is the way YOU read it&#33; Magic can also be used in &#39;The man stood outside in the rain, and LIKE MAGIC, lightning hits&#39;. Did the man create the lightning? NO but it can be READ like he should not have stood in the rain.
But if that made you angry, you definitely won&#39;t like what I have to say next ;-)

OK the following is a rant on what I think about current events.

America has become a fascist state, dependant on propaganda and influencing public opinion at home. Whilst it should be a democracy, it has a federal state, seperate from the state(s) and difficult to put on a leash.

An example of propaganda would be &#39;Precision Missiles&#39;. When Rumsfeld gave his little speech about how this war would be like none before and we can&#39;t imaging how precise missiles have become, only government-buildings would be hit, the civilian infrastucture would be held intact&#33;

This reminded me of a commercial for washing-powder: &#39;Wash&Clean has the all improved formula. It wil clean that dirt of your clothes, while preserving and restoring colours prefectly. It is a washing powder like never experienced before. Out now&#33;&#39; You know what I do, when I see a commercial? I switch the channel&#33; Because I know in the small-print there&#39;s always some kind of disclaimer, denying that results will not actually look like in the actual commercial. In other words: Bullshit&#33;

Another example of propaganda is the images shown on CNN, Fox, etc. Basically the brave American, and little Iraqi children with chocolate in their faces screaming Americani, Americani. Is that objectivity for you? Or a Kurd catholic, naming his child &#39;Dick Cheney&#39; because it is so brave. And when someone shows a girl bleeding, its something you already saw on Rotten.com. And when Al Jazeera shows such images, it is an Iraqi propaganda machine and their site gets hacked. Who is the propaganda machine? Whatver happened to those reporters that showed pictures of alleged Terrorists at Quantanamo bay? Before you say, they were not War Criminals, read The relevant article, and I quote:

Article 5:
Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal.

Let&#39;s analyse the support for the US war. Spain: last time I checked 91% of the Spanish is AGAINST the war&#33; UK: Majority is AGAINST the war&#33; Australia: Majority is AGAINST the war&#33; Israel: Fascist states don&#39;t count&#33; Don&#39;t know about Portugal, do know that they all get something out of supporting, and it ain&#39;t world-democracy.

Let&#39;s think about about current events some more. Microsoft, a monopoly with an imperfect product, calls open-source software a virus. No one can deny that it is everything, Microsoft does NOT stand for. Warez: labeld as terrorism by several institutions who have a monopoly and overcharge customers. Giving stuff away for free? That is something corporations do NOT stand for. Investment into 3rd world countries? That is something the western world does NOT stand for&#33; A palestinian state? That is something Israel does not stand for&#33; Osama? Created for the very reason, that his leaders are controlled by money and are dictators&#33;

Fact is that ignoring all Bullshit political statements, the US has the most hated government in the world. And why not? It works on the principal, that might is right, whenever it has &#39;helped&#39; poorer nations it was either through supplying weapons, or loans which demanded huge concessions in return. It created drug-smuggling and drug-nations. How? By making it illegal, it made it the most overvalued substance in the world. Even shooting down a columbian plane, is ineffective, as selling 1/4th that planes content pays for another plane within a week.

It created dictators like Saddam, 1st by supporting him militarily against Iran, then imposing sanctions on Iraq making the Iraqis poorer and more dependant on Saddam then ever. Now they want to liberate Iraq? They will come in, put a military government in power, find another pro-american wuss for a leader like in Afghanistan and then leave. That&#39;s liberation for you? In the words of Raed: "How could “support democracy in Iraq” become to mean “bomb the hell out of Iraq”?" Answer: it is not about democracy, it is about pro-american spirit.

Fact is, that as long as the US keeps stepping on the rest of the world it will not be liked. Another fact is that by waging this illegal war, the US risks creating 1000s of more Osamas. Another fact is, that by going against the UN, it has opened a wide door for other countries to ignore the UN. In other words: Chaos&#33; People say the UN is ineffective. Yet it is an institution created for peace, has kept the peace for a long time, created the very lifeline (food for oil) which kept the Iraqi people alive, during the US&#39;s harsh sanctions. Only throgh support by it&#39;s members can an institution remain to be effective&#33;

What is democracy? Having a choice to say no. Why does Bush not bomb Florida? Because it is a democracy that prevents him from doing so. Why does the US not bomb Europe? Because 2/3rds of investment is foreign owned (dated 2000). Why is the majority of the US prison-population black? Because &#39;Might is Right&#39;&#33; Why does Isarel take more land away from Palestine everyday? Because &#39;Might is Right&#39;&#33;

What is democracy? Education&#33; Only through education could people wise up. Revolt against their governments if that government surpresses them. What does education bring? Peace&#33; An stupid man will grab his gun to solve conflicts, an intelligent man will use his head and his words. I&#39;ll be surprised if the US has ever introduced an infrastructure of providing education into a country it has bombed. Because that would actually be freedom and democracy&#33;

Back to terrorism&#33; South Africa, until 15 years ago: a surpressed nation. The African National Party (ANP), under Nelson Mandela, was labeld as terrorist organisation by the While National Party. Black people had no right, like Palestinians in Israel. In S.Africa it went pretty far, black people where shot, imprisoned, tortured. All rights to education was taken away.

The ANP did fight back however. They bombed important government buildings, some people where killed. Without exploring alternative means, the white government continued to surpress blacks and take more and more away from them: Land, education, rights. The black people were looked down upon, spat on, looked at like devils. It was only because the world continued to support Mandella and the African people, that finally Mandella was freed, and a joint government was created. But surpression still happens in Israel TODAY&#33;

Is the society we want to live in, one that is dominated by violence, by money, by blind conservatism? Or is it one that is based upon human values? One, where I respect you, and you respect me?


End Rant.

Well said Ardor

But I too did mis-interpret your WTC comment, and I&#39;ve also heard that conspiracy theory before.

Also in the other points in the thread, the Anthrax letters I think are now believed to be home-grown, not Al Qaeda.

Also, has a link actually been established between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussain?

[MagicNakor]

Yes.

Al Qaeda

Iraq

Joking aside, no.