evolution sticker in textbook ruled unconstitutional

[Busyman]

h

It was calling Evolution into question.

is that an attack from a specific religion? I don't see any specific callmarks on the sticker.

when it comes down to it; evolution cannot be called into question in any way from this judge's eyes, due to it always being a specific religious sect calling them on it (though, that would be incredibly difficult to prove)

Really though, you guys; don't learn creationism from UKR, follow the link posted and see what they have to say.

Paranoid for good reason although I find nothing wrong with the stickers.

Religious views are also being presented in science classes ffs.

The judge I guess saw the writing on the wall or the tablet.

As I said before. If folks want to waste money on stickers, that's their business. At the same time what "other" theories do YOU think should be taught? Or is Christian creationism the only other one?

A school district in Dover, Pa., has been locked in a dispute over a requirement that science students be told about “intelligent design” — the concept that the universe is so complex it must have been created by some higher power.
The disclaimer says that “any statement about life’s origins should be considered theory, not fact,” and lists four of the “many unanswered questions about the origin of life which are not mentioned in your textbook.” One of the questions is, “How did you and all living things come to possess such a complete and complex set of ‘Instructions’ for building a living body?”

I finally read your article. I believe in intelligent design but don't believe it should be in schools. It would merely be a footnote in class if that.

I can't believe you even brought this article up without bringing up the fact that some schools are teaching Christian creationism as even a scientific theory when it's simply a belief that can't even be scientificly hypothesized ffs.

I know what you are saying regarding people presenting theory as fact. There are many atheists and the like on here that tell me it's a fact that gay's are born gay.

[Biggles]

I am amazed that nobody has suggested the "God created life.... then it evolved" theory...My appologise if someone has and i just missed it.

I have started a poll in the serious poll section

I thought I had covered this but my doodles in the margin appear to have slipped by the general consciousness of the board.



Hey Ho!

[Rat Faced]

Which God?

That hypothisis supports Oden and the other Greek Gods as much as Jehova..


I maintain... that as far as i'm concerned, the Tribe in the Jungle is just as likely to hold the truth as any other religion concerning "God".

Many Scientists that support Evolution are also religious (in many different religions). They are the 1st to say that there is no contradiction.

As you have said JP... the Bible is not literal truth.. it cant be.

It is a collection of stories, both Parables and possibly simple explanations for a simple people (the ones that it was wrote for, not those that came afterwards ) ..

I've told "Stories" to my kids to explain things, I find no difficulty that Priests did the same, to make people feel better about the unknown.

[vidcc]

It was calling Evolution into question.

is that an attack from a specific religion? I don't see any specific callmarks on the sticker.

when it comes down to it; evolution cannot be called into question in any way from this judge's eyes, due to it always being a specific religious sect calling them on it (though, that would be incredibly difficult to prove)

Manny.

Do you honestly...hand on bible... believe that the stickers had no religious motivation behind them?

The judge hasn't said evolution cannot be called into question, he simply and correctly upheld the seperation of "church" and state

[ilw]

Ok, so we have a primordial soup and molecules bump into one another. Sometimes they react to creat a new molecule, sometimes they don't.

Say as an anology, you throw some yarn in the dryer and come back to find a sweater. That would be very unlikely, but probable, but that is not even close to the miniscule probability of creating a single cell.

A cell that has a memory stored in the form of DNA.

How did randomly reacting molecules (DNA) suddenly become arranged in a pattern which allows another randomly created molecule (RNA) to take that information, go elsewhere and have the endoplasmic reticulum (assembles proteins) understand the base pair language and send another molecule out to get the appropriate amino acid, bring it back for incorporation into a final product protein. This protein is then taken by another protein or vacuole to a cell membrane where it is placed.

Just thought i'd contribute the little i remember about some of the current thinking on this matter (apologies there are bound to be errors). One suggestion is that there were one or more precursors to dna/rna, these precursors would have been simpler and more easy/likely to form than dna, and these precursors evolved or were replaced by (perhaps aiding in the creation of) dna, which although more complex and dificult to make had other advantages. Also i don't think life is really wholly believed to have started at the cellular stage, at its most simple life is simply self replication of a pattern, something which many molecules (eg RNA) perform naturally.

Talking about intelligent design, what about the human back and torso its so clearly a rip off of a creature that goes around on all 4s. Really what is the likelihood that the best design for a 4 legged creature and an upright 2 legged creature is so similar that its practically identical. Is god supposed to be lazy or incompetent? When you consider the stresses and strains that the back is placed under when walking uprightor picking things up its actually a piss poor design and precisely the type of design that would be produced by small incremental improvements rather than a proper ground up design. In other words it is at best a local maxima in quality of design, but compared to potential other solutions its pretty mediocre and its just human arrogance that we believe we have reached the end of our evolution and that we have the best (or even an intelligent) design going.


I downloaded the 3 on 1 debate, but i've only watched the first 1/2 hour, does it get any more interesting? I did a bit of checking btw and this Dr Hovind is a bit of psycho, you might want to check into some more of his theories, there are other creationist debaters who imo you'd be better off referencing.
He spends his 1st 12 minutes making predictions which are actually exactly what he sees around him i.e. he doesn't appear to actually understand the concept behind the word prediction. He evades the obvious unanswerable questions re god ie where he comes from, why the bible is right and all other religions wrong etc.. Admittedly the science boys are pretty crap, but unless you say theres anything really worth watching later on i'm leaving it at that.

[Busyman]

I downloaded the 3 on 1 debate, but i've only watched the first 1/2 hour, does it get any more interesting? I did a bit of checking btw and this Dr Hovind is a bit of psycho, you might want to check into some more of his theories, there are other creationist debaters who imo you'd be better off referencing.
He spends his 1st 12 minutes making predictions which are actually exactly what he sees around him i.e. he doesn't appear to actually understand the concept behind the word prediction. He evades the obvious unanswerable questions re god ie where he comes from, why the bible is right and all other religions wrong etc.. Admittedly the science boys are pretty crap, but unless you say theres anything really worth watching later on i'm leaving it at that.

Hey the guy has followers. Now do folks see why Bush could have been voting in?
Imagine these followers in Legion.
Belief in religion is already somewhat illogical (and yes I believe) but then you've got jokers like this that take the illogical to new heights.

[hobbes]

Ah but the Razor states that we must keep things as simple as possible, which would be one, not many.

Therefore one creator, outside force, starter of t'universe. One God.

Religion is merely an understanding of that one God's nature and purpose, it is not part of the creator's fundamental being. For this argument religion is therefore entirely unnecessary (I think bunny boy alluded to that already).

So we are left with science telling us that there was one creator, who started the universe, which then evolved. The simplest and most likely answers, therefore the scientific position until proven wrong.

By creating God, you answer a simple question (how did we get here) with one more complex one(where did God come from). Certainly Occam would have dropped his razor and headed for the nearest apple, after your jest.

The scientific default is: oops, that should have been (I don't know, ask me again later).

[hobbes]

Hobbes, what you speak of may never be known, just as the exact conditions on Earth at the time may never be known. But either these things happened or they didn't, if they didn't, that would point to a creator. Various experiments have been carried out over the years in attempts to replicate the conditions of the earth at that time, and to produce the chemicals and amino acids first thought to have existed. Some experiments have claimed successes, but this produced arguments over the make up of the 'atmosphere' used.

l don't understand much about biology but l have been reading about modern day viruses such as HIV which 'evolves' millions of times faster than we do. One study found that it could evolve in one day at the equivalent rate of six million years of human evolution. Scientists believe that these viruses have origins that far precede any other form of life, and they do possess mind boggling capabilities to adapt.

l came across this site a while ago, but l must admit most of it flies way over my head.

The key is that in order to adapt or evolve, you must come to be first. I am willing to accept evolution as a valid concept after the first cell has been made.

Before then we must accept random molecules not only combining to form stable structures, but a language for telling other molecules to build copies for them.

At ILW, scientitsts talk about homeostasis, and I think the ability to isloate oneself from the environment is the only way to achieve this. You can't build things if they keep diffusing away. So in my first post I was trying to describe the most basic functions a cell must possess to attain homeostasis.

I'm not saying that is wrong or impossible, just that I cannot figure that out.

Viruses are actually quite an interesting subject, and may have a key role in the development of new species. All of us contain viral dna within us which is inactive. It is thought that viruses may be normal genes which have gained the ability to "escape" from the host. These little buggers can extract themselves from me and infect someone else. It may do this by settling into that persons DNA, and viola, the have a new gene.

That is pretty cool, but consider viruses from other animals may get into us, that means we can get totally new genetic material. This is how some think that evolution is not a slow creep, but more occurs in quick burst.

We use similar technology today with bacteria. We have a vector insinuate the human insulin gene into bacterial DNA and turn them into insulin making machines.

Some of this post involves speculation, but it is fun stuff to think about.

[vidcc]

These little buggers can extract themselves from me and infect someone else. It may do this by settling into that persons DNA, and viola, the have a new gene.

you romantic poet

[hobbes]

Ah, but I didn't create him. The Razor did, 'cause it's the simplest solution. I base this on your own arguments to date.

SAves everybody a lot of time. If something , anything is complex and people are confused, just blame God. That is the easiest thing to do. Not very helpful though as many clever criminals get of scotfree.

It is a pointless solution to a real problem.

edit: Hey Vidcc, keep your DNA to yourself. I don't want none of your damn carebear genes making me all sensitive and shit.