Changing The Way The World Works.

[hobbes]

J2k4,

The way you express yourself is sometimes hard for me to understand. I don't doubt your intelligence, in fact, I am trying to use it to my advantage and learn something.

As this is a forum, the key is communication with others, most not having the same experience or training that you or I do. Knowing this, I alter my language so that the average person can access it.

It is not the words I have trouble with but your lexicon is that of someone who has studied philosophy or psychology.

Expressing yourself using specialized terms makes posting more efficient for you, but loses the common person. You had one line about "the ambient conditions, frequency and impetus re-enforcing the imperative", which I understand but damn, it hurts to read that stuff.

I like analogies, imperfect as they are.

Anyway, keep posting, but stop giving me icecream headaches.

Two points for you:

1) You stated that you can live with disagreements and enjoy the give and take. That is the golden nugget everyone should take away from all this. Sometimes the best learning comes when we are forced to logically explain our points of view. It is not about "winning" an exchange with another poster, but about what you can learn from it.

2) Just to clarify, I don't follow the 10 commandments to cover my ass, I remove the diety from religions and look at them as philosophy. I behave as I see is proper, I do not behave a certain way just in case a certain religion turns out to be right.


Insanebassman,

1) I shudder at the thought of being called a cynic. I am a skeptic. Huge difference.
2) I don't wallow, I wade.
3) I have certain "perspectives" based on experience, not preconceptions.

Overall, If you could flesh ourt your post a little, then maybe I can clarify myself. Your response is a little vague so I don't know where to start. But, then again, you are "insane".

[j2k4]

Originally posted by hobbes@5 April 2003 - 08:54
J2k4,Two points for you:

1) You stated that you can live with disagreements and enjoy the give and take. That is the golden nugget everyone should take away from all this. Sometimes the best learning comes when we are forced to logically explain our points of view. It is not about "winning" an exchange with another poster, but about what you can learn from it.

2) Just to clarify, I don't follow the 10 commandments to cover my ass, I remove the diety from religions and look at them as philosophy. I behave as I see is proper, I do not behave a certain way just in case a certain religion turns out to be right.

Hobbes-
Let me assure you I'm not trying to score "points" or "win" an argument. I'm learning from you, too.
I will admit, sometimes my desire for "the extra syllable" may make me difficult to understand-I have been made aware of this in other situations, but my reasoning is thus: Not being conversation, per se, (though we are "conversing") this correspondence is an exercise in written words, which, for me, emerge in a wholly different fashion. It's not helped by the fact I enjoy doing this-I think some things can only be fully expressed in a medium that allows for absorption and reflection. I know people who can and do actually speak as if they are writing, but unfortunately for you, I don't see them as often as I'd like.

Just to clarify my mention of the 10 Commandments: I meant metaphorically; whatever distillation of experience provides your behavioral guidelines?
I used that specifically because they make sense and are easy to remember, not because they're religious in origin.

Sorry for quoting you-

[hobbes]

I had missed your signature line before, it reminds me of a discussion I had in "AO for kids". Yes, it comes from the now archived Anarchy Online forum. The population base was not suitable for fruitful discussion, with a few notable exceptions.

If you go to anarchy-online.com (an online RPG, not a revolution) and search "hobbes" you can find this discussion about the levels of learning or competence. If you want to read others, ignore all those related to game play and look in the "social" forum. "Those blacks" is a good one.

This is not homework, just for fun if you care, just funny how we seem to think alike in some regards.

I still like my sig. there: "So shines a good deed in a weary world." A quote from Willy Wonka and the chocolate factory.

I know you are not trying to score points, that was for everyone else. If you are secure in yourself, you can withstand disagreement and use it as a tool for learning.

Never quote me again!!! (chuckles to self)

On the other front, what I meant to say was that my posts are contructed to be readable to anyone with a simple mind. I will explain things which are somewhat subtle. Your posts sometimes remind me of that SNL skit about students camping out in hopes of seeing John Lennon, so they can learn from his wisdom.

He shows up and talks only in double talk. "You are because you aren't, understand?"
Horatio Saenz: "I think I understand?"
"Oh, do you UNDERstand, or do you OVERsit?"
Chris Kattan: "Oh, I get it, and that's just stupid".

Anyway, take care, and keep on posting.

Remember, Hobbes isn't just about serious things. He loves sports and will gladly post that Sandra Bullock is his female of choice.

From my favorite movie: " All work and no play make Jack a dull boy"!

[Ardor]

Eh I'm just gonna jump in here with some thoughts/ideas ->Not practical at all btw:

• abolish the idea of 1 person speaking for (and often misrepresenting) millions of people. That does not mean that there should be no higher authority though. I'm tending towards a system where everybody has a computer or electronic device at home, with the option to propose laws and laws get passed based on majority votes. No veto possible -> they suck! Power for the people, by the people.
  
• Get rid of marketing as a tool to sell stuff. It is basically a colourfull way of inflating a products value, ie. lie about it, and eventually leads to disillusionment. That, or give everyone a FREE and GREAT education to differentiate between truth and lie.
  
• Some things in life should just be free. For example, basic things like education, incl. university and/or college, medicinal care. To have to pay for these basically creates a barrier to being intelligent/educated and healthy.
  
• Everyone should be sterilised at birth, and unsterilised when they choose to have children. Yeah I'm one of those people that just hates using condoms I also think that there's way too many young mothers, broken families, etc.
  
• Friggin' legalise drugs! Drug Policy today is controlled by rooms of conservative parents, who still think that 1 gram of hash costs $1000 on the streets, and is as bad as crack-cocaine. Legalising drugs will make drugs much safer, reduce drug-related deaths, dependancy, and crime. Realistic Education about drugs should be included in any curriculum -> Drugs aren't bad, but they can be, if used improperly (I include cigs and booze in drugs btw).
  
• Find an alternative to oil, preferrably quickly. I sometimes think that car-manufacturers just sit on their ass and don't change to hydrogen, because 1. it's not neccessary 2. it's too expensive. The same delay happened with basic safety stuff like seatbelts.
  
• Move away from the short-term focus displayed in many countries. "If it doesn't bring money now, it's not worth investing in." Who knows how many world-changing innovations might have come along, if not for that way of thinking. The revolutionary stuff like airtravel and the Internet has come forth from long-term government funding, though sadly military. Then again 'Mobile Phones' and 'Japanese Cars' have not

These are, as I said, just some thoughts towards a better and drastically different society. Feel free to criticise or to add your thoughts, though don't bother using 'practicallity' as an argument. My thoughts have a tendency to be 'out there' sometimes I also believe in a World-Nation btw, not in the supremacy of one nation or race above others.

On religion: I think the major factor that influenced it's disapearance is education, technology, science and freedom of the press. Most of these are not present in deeply religious, and often poor societies. The absence of alternatives or knowledge keeps faith strong, also faith in Today's society. Europe's society has also been largely influenced by christianity-> referring more to the moral aspect, and less the conservative aspect of religion. In a way, todays political leaders have become the Gods (charismatic, morally just, flawless, etc), which were worshipped in more primitive societies.

@longterm: You've brought foward an interesting selection of literature. I've read some, though certainly not all. I'd like to suggest another book, called The World We're In by Will Hutton, and some of his other books. I thought this book was quite insightful about todays society, maybe a bit heavy on the America-Bashing though. If you're thinking about a revolution, I also find Nelson Mandela' s Long Walk To Freedom a good start, particularly when reflecting on how difficult it is to change a country, or even the world. That is not meant to discourage anyone though ! Oh and finally, this is a website: http://awareness.kicks-ass.org/, run by a good friend of mine, with the premise of making people aware of all the BS in this world. It basically revolves around people posting news about current events. It started up last week, so it's in it's infancy, but I like the idea a lot.

Love, Peace and harmony to All (except for Saddam, Bush & Rumsfeld and all the other dictators of the Status Quo)

[j2k4]

Wow.

[junkyardking]

j2k4 Posted: 2 April 2003 - 15:22
You're right, I need to simplify that post:

1) The Mideast is a region in turmoil, historically due to religious/sub-sect differences.

2) Mideastern countries are individually and collectively insular as regards their religion(s).

3) This turmoil is compounded by social/developmental/economic imbalance.

4) In it's reporting, the media ignores the overriding concern (religious differences) in order to emphasize everything else. ("Who would suffer an in-depth discussion of religion on a news program?").

I believe in God, Z, but I'm not "born-again"-I got it right the first time.

I have to say i strongly disagree with what you say a bout the middle east, it's like it is because of foreign powers, example Iran was progressing towards democracy until the CIA and the Shah Came along.

Foriegn Powers have long Meddled In the middle east one for oil and two fighting the communists.

People in these countrys suffered because of Western countrys minipulation.
Osama and Saddam were both supported By western countrys for short term goals and look where that got them.

On the issue of Religion and God, they both dont exsist and until alot of humans relise this and spend there time actualy helping change the world instead of praying to some cross/staue the world will stay the same.

Also Nationalism has alot to blame for and until Countries start sharing and not competing we will be stuck in this constant cycle.

A good website is http://www.indymedia.org it is alternative non-corporate news and has alot of decussion on topics such as this.
from that site you can go to a local Indymedia site if your country/state has one which most do, especialy the US .

[j2k4]

Originally posted by junkyardking@6 April 2003 - 10:31

j2k4 Posted: 2 April 2003 - 15:22
You're right, I need to simplify that post:

1) The Mideast is a region in turmoil, historically due to religious/sub-sect differences.

2) Mideastern countries are individually and collectively insular as regards their religion(s).

3) This turmoil is compounded by social/developmental/economic imbalance.

4) In it's reporting, the media ignores the overriding concern (religious differences) in order to emphasize everything else. ("Who would suffer an in-depth discussion of religion on a news program?").

I believe in God, Z, but I'm not "born-again"-I got it right the first time.

I have to say i strongly disagree with what you say a bout the middle east, it's like it is because of foreign powers, example Iran was progressing towards democracy until the CIA and the Shah Came along.

Foriegn Powers have long Meddled In the middle east one for oil and two fighting the communists.

People in these countrys suffered because of Western countrys minipulation.
Osama and Saddam were both supported By western countrys for short term goals and look where that got them.

On the issue of Religion and God, they both dont exsist and until alot of humans relise this and spend there time actualy helping change the world instead of praying to some cross/staue the world will stay the same.

Also Nationalism has alot to blame for and until Countries start sharing and not competing we will be stuck in this constant cycle.

A good website is http://www.indymedia.org it is alternative non-corporate news and has alot of decussion on topics such as this.
from that site you can go to a local Indymedia site if your country/state has one which most do, especialy the US .

Just for the sake of debate, I'll grant your claim of interference.

How do think the Mideast would look today absent international interference?
Would the borders be in different places? Would there BE any borders?
Would there be peace in the region?
Would Israel exist?
Without (specifically) Western interference, do you think the U.S.S.R. could have restrained itself from marching in and annexing the whole region (in the name of State Security), and appropriating the oil exclusively for it's own use?

If THAT had happened, we wouldn't be talking about this in an internet forum: it, and the technology which makes it possible, would also have been the exclusive domain of the (now-defunct, thanks to the U.S.A.) Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.