This Came From an Editorial in a German Publication????

[Busyman]

I thought the title was pretty good, Busyman. I asked myself the same question after reading the article originally.

There may as well been a link to the article. I could barely find an opinion in there, somewhere, in there, somewhe....

Maybe I'll pop the article up on my laptop and bring it in the shitter with my newspaper.

In the shitter there's nothing left to do doo but read.

[3RA1N1AC]

As to the "conservative" question, it is hard to compare using Europe as a whole. Europe is not a single political or cultural mass

right. it's easy to take contemporary american delineations for granted. the writer is making an argument for interventionism, and interventionism & isolationism don't necessarily equate to conservative or liberal. you could easily find a right-winger who disagrees with interventionism, a left-winger who agrees with it, and vice versa.

the author's praise of reagan and the bushes' courage, as well as his comments on hitler, seem to place him as sort of a moderate right-winger? but who knows. he might be an extreme right-winger who just disagrees with genocidal racism. really can't speculate further without reading more about the guy.

[Skweeky1]

Everose -

Europe is full of conservatives and it's much worse than it is here. I take it they're just too xenophobic to venture on a multicultural board

[Everose]

Thanks for your answer, Skweeky. I realized later the term 'conservative' I used didn't quite fit, and appreciate your understanding and answer regardless of my fumbling.

[ilw]

I would speculate that the author would be from the south of Germany which is the economic centre of germany, and is decidedly conservative and christian (and probably increasingly right wing).

Its never pleasant hearing criticism, but perhaps some of those points have merit. There are always going to be situations where the morality is clear, but diplomatic routes are stimmied, eg dafur.

Just a couple of points about the article though

Appeasement cost millions of Jews and non-Jews their lives as England and
France, allies at the time, negotiated and hesitated too long before they
noticed that Hitler had to be fought, not bound to toothless agreements.

the implication there is (afaik) a bit bollocks isn't it, i thought the final solution wasn't set in motion until 1941. What England and France danced around wasn't the concentration camps, but the invasion of Czechoslovakia & Poland.

Just actually took a look at the german version, is this supposed to be a direct translation because its pretty much the same but the translator has some moments of artistic licence

Ronald Reagan ended the Cold War, freeing half of the German people from nearly 50 years of terror and virtual slavery

he doesn't say that at all. in German it just says "Reagan ended the cold war" full stop
300,000 becomes 500,000

I wish I were joking, but I am not. A substantial fraction of our (German)
Government, and if the polls are to be believed, the German people, actually
believe that creating an Official State "Muslim Holiday" will somehow spare
us from the wrath of the fanatical Islamists.

wholly added by the translator.

Got to go, but i'm sure theres more.

[vidcc]

@ILW

I haven't read any further than J2's posted part... thank you for the translation..

@ j2.

Can we now expect a CBS. type of reactionary "honorable" resignation?

[j2k4]

Look, I really don't care what you think. If you could stop being condescending for a split second maybe you'd understand what I'm saying. As for your charge that I automatically dissent with you - all i am doing is pointing out flaws in the guys editorial. Furthemore, just because you are the thread starter doesnt give you some magical place as the person who is being attacked. I disagree with you, just like you disagree with me. Seriously, read what you just wrote.. you are being incredible condescending and basically a smart ass. I didnt once attack you in my response yet you somehow find it necessary to basically call me a dumbass. I may be younger than you, but your intentions are far more immature. You want to bait me into being a liberal crazy... im not going to that. so go ahead and pick at tiny parts of my arguement then make smart ass remarks about them.. edit my arguement so i seem like a wacko, i dont care - I am above your tactics.

Then I apologize for being presumptive and condescending; I found your post to lack a certain cognition of past events, but leaving that aside, my point was that this editorial was written by a German who has a historical perspective which could quite literally serve as a blueprint for a defense of American action.

I would ask how you think it is that this fact is even possible?

This man is not (at least, I gather he is not) an ex-pat American, yet his understanding of the dynamic at work between Europe and the U.S. mirrrors mine-it is understandable that under that particular circumstance you felt I was presuming his proxy, but, as I said, he and I both hold that perspective, and were I to state my case, I couldn't do any better than he has.

Again, my point is that his geographical orientation should (one might think) more closely reflect your view rather than mine; the question is, why doesn't it?

My apologies for jumping the gun.

[mogadishu]

Then I apologize for being presumptive and condescending; I found your post to lack a certain cognition of past events, but leaving that aside, my point was that this editorial was written by a German who has a historical perspective which could quite literally serve as a blueprint for a defense of American action.

Again, my point is that his geographical orientation should (one might think) more closely reflect your view rather than mine; the question is, why doesn't it?

I believe I did adress past history in relation to the current situation in my first post. The author makes the point that Bush is risking total destruction of the US economy, but that the risk is worth it because "everything is at stake". My point is that "everything" was at stake in WWII as well, yet our economy was the strongest in the world. I was only adressing one part of his arguement, but I still think I was clear.

Again, my point is that his geographical orientation should (one might think) more closely reflect your view rather than mine; the question is, why doesn't it?

The burden of proof is not on me because one person in German is in favor of intervention. People have different views in the world, and this is no different in Germany. I gather that you agree that his perspective is not representative of the majority of Germans. So my question to you is why in a country that does have the historical perspective you speak of, do most people not support the US invasion of Iraq and our general foreign policy?

[ilw]

Just to finish off the parts of hte translation that the translator made up, the following bits are not in the german version:

Even as it is uncovered that the loudest critics of
the American action in Iraq made illicit billions, no, TENS of billions, in
the corrupt U. N. Oil-for-Food program.

I thought this was an odd comment for a german even when i'd only read the english.

One cannot help but recall Britain's Neville Chamberlain waving the
laughable treaty signed by Adolph Hitler, and declaring European "Peace in
our time".

His American critics may quibble over the details, but we Europeans know the
truth.

acting on moral conviction,

in contrast to those "arrogant Americans", as the World Champions of "tolerance"

Reach out to terrorists,

Admittedly that doesn't change significantly the tone of the article, but thats kinda shit that someone added all that, especially when you consider the emotive value of the comments added and the way they are targeted at americans. I hope that English version was written by a German because otherwise its a big fat lie when he adds in the sections about "we in Europe know the truth" and "our (German) government" (the german author is non specific about who wants a islamic holiday)
That was not a translation and shouldn't claim to be.

Edit: Added some bits above

[hobbes]

ILW,

You are so right. The way the post was constructed detracted from it's useful points and contributed soley to how people reacted to it.

Just look at "the Daves" post, it was merely a reflection of irritation.