Patriotism = Parochialism

[hobbes]

Nice tactic, if it doesn't fit your hypothesis then ignore it.

Oh and that post was a tad badly written, however I won't let the exception detract from the rule.

The exceptions can be explained, but if the concept is already apparent then why bother. I have yet to hear of an succesful agnostic in a healthy relationship who turned to Christ in no apparent crisis. The converters are those who have hit rock bottom in life, from drugs, alcohol, death in the family, and they are desperate for something, someone, anything, to take them by the hand and tell them it will be ok. Very susceptible lot are the emotionally crushed.

I'm glad you agree that my point was correct, or did you just choose not to comment on it?

And I believe you meant poorly written unless, of course, you are commenting on my penmanship.

Has it every occurred to you that people who post material you do not agree with are actually making honest, valid points and not using clever turns of phrases or tactics. You seem to think that labeling things in such a way makes it so. It does not.

[Busyman]

I'm actually insulted by the above comments. As one who does not believe in God or an afterlife, you will find that I act just as politely/morally as one doing so because they fear Gods' wrath. I don't need your "security blanket" and quite frankly, I'm terrified that you need one to keep control of yourself.

I understand that for a society to work we must have rules about interaction. If we all obey these rules I can be sure that my house will be mine when I get home. If society imposes laws and penalties, these can keep in line, as in Athiestic China.

Imagine a world in which we drop all the stories about exactly who God is and exactly what he wants and just go with a "God concept". It dictates that we are placed here by some God as a priviledge and we should treat the Earth and our fellow mankind kindly and fairly.

This would end all the bickering about manmade documents. As I stated before, the unitarian church already exists and allows people to focus on their union as humans one and allows the individual to define what God means to him.

Do I need devine intervention to come forth with a set of commandments to tell me right from wrong. No, not at all. If you are acting selfishly, you are not acting morally, simple as that. I mean when you read the 10 commandments, is any of them not obvious? Do you say, good thing we have a list or I would be lying and cheating and never thought it wrong?

But rather than just accept a less personal God concept, mankind seems to require a "cookbook" they can follow and when they die they will get exactly what the book states. Too many cookbooks can spoil the broth.

Please get off the high horse bones 'cause I sure ain't on it.
If you feel insulted that's really just too bad.

There are atheists that live just fine morally and there are Christians that don't.
Big deal.

No one said that you needed intervention. Some other folks do or it just simply helps.

You don't do "wrong" things because you believe it's just wrong; you believe it's selfish.
A religious person may believe the same but...under different circumstances, you have to be a plain atheist idiot to NOT believe that a person may halt their own human urge to...let's say....kill someone if they believe that, past your law, they believe they are going to hell in the afterlife.

I haven't knocked your atheism in the least yet you are gettin' all offended and shit. Boo-hoo



What the hell do you think would stop my off-the-high-horse selfish ass from cappin' you in a dark alley simply because I don't want to deal with you further?

It certainly wouldn't be my conscience and the law may catch up with me afterwards but alas then it's too late bubba.

You'd then be the nothing that you have faith in.

[hobbes]

What the hell do you think would stop my off-the-high-horse selfish ass from cappin' you in a dark alley simply because I don't want to deal with you further?

It certainly wouldn't be my conscience and the law may catch up with me afterwards but alas then it's too late bubba.

You'd then be the nothing that you have faith in.

Humans are the only animals that curb their "selfish" instincts because they understand that at some point they may need the assistance of others.

I don't shoot you because I may turn around and be shot. A lawless world filled with the selfish gratification of our animal urges would have no security.

And security, in several different facets(self esteem, home, the future, financial), as already discussed in this thread is what humans desire most.

If people don't kill because they fear God's wrath, then they completely missed God's message about loving and forgiving in the first place. They are certainly going to feel his wrath come judgement day based on how they approach life. They might as well kill, it will make no difference in the end.

[bigboab]

Being religious does does not necessary make you a good person. Just as being non-religious does not necessary make you a bad person. It is in your genes. You are either good or bad. Nothing will change that. Please dont talk about reformed characters, the majority given the opportunity return to their old ways.
The only people who are truly reformed are people who have developed their bad ways through through 'custom and usage' and did not know any other way.

[hobbes]

Some religious people will not compromise. Neither will some Republicans, some black people, some women, you tar every religious person with the same brush. Frankly your generalisations are beneath you.

I can only apologize for offending you, it was not my intention. Sometimes when we discuss things as generalizations it can insult an individual who does not fit the trend.

My goal is not to offend or trick, just discuss things as my experience has taught me.

I cannot deny my belief that brainwashing is a very powerful tool used by many religions and abused by many religions (suicide bombers)to recruit and control people.

That is my experience growing up in St. Louis where many people are born and raised Catholic and never see a public school.

I strongly believe that "faith" is intimately related to "loyalty and home". I think we all have a strong connection to our place of birth and our country. Our hometown became part of the fabric of who we are, our country as well. I remember that we would say the "Pledge of Allegiance" every morning in pre-school and kindergarten and the person who's birthday it was got to hold the American flag.

These events and re-enforced beliefs permeate a very liquid mind and when this mind hardens at 6 or 7, these beliefs are trapped forever within and they are beliefs which are very difficult to alter.

I use 6 or 7 because it is said that if a child that learns a new language before this age he will pick it up without flaw, after this age, he will speak with an accent as some center in the mind has closed.

I think faith is one of those things that are set in the mind at a young age through continued and consistent re-enforcement and gets solidified therein.

For myself, although I have lived in Texas for 9 years and I live in a town where the basketball team has won 2 NBA titles, I don't view myself in any way as a Texan, I just live here. I like basketball, but I am completely indifferent to the Spurs. I live and die by my Missouri Tigers basketball and St. Louis Cardinal baseball because they have been with me since I can remember.

Interestingly, the St. Louis Cardinal football team left our city in 1987, they were my team. We later got a new team called the Rams, and although they are the St. Louis Rams, I really don't have any passion for the team, because they are not the Cardinals. I did not grow up supporting the Rams. I root for the Rams, but even when they lost the Superbowl to the Patriots, I was like "oh well". Mind you, the Cardinals NEVER made it to the SuperBowl in their history, so getting to the SuperBowl is a huge accomplishment.

I cannot explain to you why I have such passion for Cardinal baseball,
I just do. It is not objective or logical and there is no way you could talk me into being passionate for a different team. It is a feeling lodged into my solidified psyche, just as I feel that your "faith" is in you.

I personally don't even understand the term "faith" as it was not part of my upbringing. My parents never mentioned God, either in a good nor bad way. If I were to convert today, I would never actually have "faith", but more just hope that the religion I was practicing was right.

[Busyman]

Humans are the only animals that curb their "selfish" instincts because they understand that at some point they may need the assistance of others.

I don't shoot you because I may turn around and be shot. A lawless world filled with the selfish gratification of our animal urges would have no security.

And security, in several different facets(self esteem, home, the future, financial), as already discussed in this thread is what humans desire most.

If people don't kill because they fear God's wrath, then they completely missed God's message about loving and forgiving in the first place. They are certainly going to feel his wrath come judgement day based on how they approach life. They might as well kill, it will make no difference in the end.

I get what you are saying about security but you fail to my point.

If I want to kill you I don't give a fuck about security unless it's to save my own ass.
I would hope you had stepped outside of your atheist thinking.

Belief that there is a higher power other than the law watching over what you do can and does halt many adverse things from happening.
It's logical.

It may stop a person from killing the rapist/murderer that killed their daughter.
It may help someone get through their parents get being killed in a car accident.
You can't be this much of an arrogant idiot. Say it ain't so.....

1. People are raised in a faith and brainwashed as children.

2. People who convert later in life are "those who have hit rock bottom in life, from drugs, alcohol, death in the family, and they are desperate for something, someone, anything, to take them by the hand and tell them it will be ok"

3. Religious people will not compromise with other religions.

I, for example, fit none of those.
You have to excuse hobbes. He's a college graduate and sometimes books take away some of the common sense.

[hobbes]

I get what you are saying about security but you fail to my point.

If I want to kill you I don't give a fuck about security unless it's to save my own ass.
I would hope you had stepped outside of your atheist thinking.

Belief that there is a higher power other than the law watching over what you do can and does halt many adverse things from happening.
It's logical.

It may stop a person from killing the rapist/murderer that killed their daughter.
It may help someone get through their parents get being killed in a car accident.
You can't be this much of an arrogant idiot. Say it ain't so.....

I, for example, fit none of those.
You have to excuse hobbes. He's a college graduate and sometimes books take away some of the common sense.

Well people in Russia and China aren't randomly killing each other and they aren't worried about God. So I guess you're wrong. Religious people kill all the time to save their own ass. What do you think is going on in Iraq. Being Christian certainly didn't seem to stop Bush.

I must apologise for being a college graduate. You see in college, the content of the books is largely forgotten, it is the ability to sift through information and seperate the wheat from the chaff which is important. Actually, I have never claimed to be a college graduate, are you just making stuff up?

By the way, how many times do i have to post that I am agnostic before you actually understand that?

[Busyman]

I cannot explain to you why I have such passion for Cardinal baseball,
I just do. It is not objective or logical and there is no way you could talk me into being passionate for a different team. It is a feeling lodged into my solidified psyche, just as I feel that your "faith" is in you.

I personally don't even understand the term "faith" as it was not part of my upbringing. My parents never mentioned God, either in a good nor bad way. If I were to convert today, I would never actually have "faith", but more just hope that the religion I was practicing was right.

It sounds to be like you are more indifferent to non-atheists than I would be to an atheist or any other religion. I've known folks like you for years and would love to see your thoughts on you deathbed....you know...to see how little faith you have.

People like what they like for different reasons. You could have liked Cardinal baseball because you saw a good play and kept watching...who knows. I couldn't stand basketball when I was grwoing up until I saw Jordan and realized that regardless of the sport, he was simply amazing. I then proceeded to learn how to dunk and do a reverse before I could make a jump shot.

I think soccer is the most liked sport in the world due to it's age and it being easy to pick up as far as actually playing. I personally am a homer. I like the team of the city from whence I came. In baseball I rooted from the Orioles since they were the closest (Balitomore). Since I'm not a big fan, I will root for the Nats, now that we have a team again. (btw I might be doing their sound for at least 20 games; that and the Redskins (8 games))

If you do not understand faith then you are at a loss. Faith can make one strong when otherwise weak. Even simply not understanding it may give others a one up on you. I have many things about the human psyche besides just getting it out of a book.

If people would buckle down and think about why we do the things we do (specifically), they would realize it ain't all genetics.

[Busyman]

Well people in Russia and China aren't randomly killing each other and they aren't worried about God. So I guess you're wrong. Religious people kill all the time to save their own ass. What do you think is going on in Iraq. Being Christian certainly didn't seem to stop Bush.

I must apologise for being a college graduate. You see in college, the content of the books is largely forgotten, it is the ability to sift through information and seperate the wheat from the chaff which is important. Actually, I have never claimed to be a college graduate, are you just making stuff up?

By the way, how many times do i have to post that I am agnostic before you actually understand that?

Well you just said you were a college graduate. That's enough for me.

People kill for a reason. How the hell do you know that folks in China don't belive in God? This what I'm about. You don't actually know shit. Does this mean you know the guy walking down your street has faith? Your books fail you. I guess your wrong.

Who said anything about random killing? Laws do work...to an extent. Faith is the same. A devout Christian can still lose their mind after mental trauma. You put faith as an absolute failing by pointing out the same shit I've heard before....
"He was Christian yet murdered people." ...........nothing profound...heard it before.

[Busyman]

If you want to look at the sources of suffering in the world today I would venture that big business, greed and the excessive consumption of the worlds resources would be better places to start.

...and hobbes may point out that some of those people are religious therefore faith means nothing?..........