Is it in the Genes?

[JPaul]

hobbes

Good post, thanks for that.

To follow on on one minor point. I think there are two seperate issues with regard to the attraction thing. One being controlled by nature / nurture and one being controled by cultural influence. They also come in a distinct order.

1. What gender am I attracted to, bearing in mind that it might be both (but possibly one more than the other).

2. Now what particular physical manifestation do I find most attractive.

I think that's what I was saying before, but hobbes' post has inspired me to express it differently.

Another however here. The desire to procreate is not as all encompassing as hobbes may have us believe. Yes, deep down the desire is there, but we have become much more sophisticated than that. We do things because we want to, because it feels good. Having nothing to do with anything other than hedonism.

There are plenty of people, for whom sexual intercourse is just a bit of fun. Not only do they not wish to procreate, they will take steps to ensure it does not happen. This group consist of pretty much every man I know.

Lets face it, in hobbes' thesis any man would sexualate any woman of child bearing age willing to slap uglies. I think not.

[hobbes]

hobbes
Lets face it, in hobbes' thesis any man would sexualate any woman of child bearing age willing to slap uglies. I think not.

Nature provides the car for us to drive, but societal structure, length of forced abstinence and alcohol tends to determine when we use it. Nature just makes sure she's gassed up and ready to go.

You really shouldn't drive that car when drunk, as umm, err, asthetics have been known to be replaced with a paper bag.

My point about procreation was perhaps a little sloppy.

Nature refers to a bigger picture than a specific animal.

The animal is on a need to know basis only.

The animal does not need to appreciate that sex is related to the production of offspring, but simplly needs a desire to have it.

The animal doesn't need to understand that hydration is important to health, he just need to drink water.

We humans are driven by our nature to have sex and we enjoy it. We understand the connection between sex and procreation, which is rather a unique perspective.

I didn't mean to express that animals and humans are conciously thinking "I want to propagate my gene pool, I need to make babies", we are simply responding to natures simple command, "Go hit that, dog!". It has a plan for us bigger than we can or need to appreciate.

[JPaul]

"Nature refers to a bigger picture than a specific animal."

"The animal does not need to appreciate that sex is related to the production of offspring, but simplly needs a desire to have it."

"The animal doesn't need to understand that hydration is important to health, he just need to drink water."

All true, however

"We humans are driven by our nature to have sex and we enjoy it. We understand the connection between sex and procreation, which is rather a unique perspective."

We are not the same as the other animals, we are not driven by instinct alone. We understand cause and effect, we understand that actions have rammifications. We then make choices.

But we digress.

[hobbes]

We are not the same as the other animals, we are not driven by instinct alone. We understand cause and effect, we understand that actions have rammifications. We then make choices.

But we digress.

My mind is reading this in a couple ways, and I can't pinpoint what exactly you are implying with this line. I find I can spin it several ways, but I can't figure which way was your intent.

Meaning is that a "stand alone" comment or is it referring back to a particular point.

[JPaul]

We are not the same as the other animals, we are not driven by instinct alone. We understand cause and effect, we understand that actions have rammifications. We then make choices.

But we digress.

My mind is reading this in a couple ways, and I can't pinpoint what exactly you are implying with this line. I find I can spin it several ways, but I can't figure which way was your intent.

Meaning is that a "stand alone" comment or is it referring back to a particular point.

Yes.

However I suspect you mean "reading that" and " "that line", rather than "reading this" and "this line". As it was your good self who posted "My mind is reading this in a couple ways, and I can't pinpoint what exactly you are implying with this line."

Think it thro'.

[hobbes]

You can't answer a "this or that" post with a "yes", that's just confusing.

[Busyman]

This is flawed, flwaed, flawed

The perception of what is beautiful varies from culture to culture and changes over time.

Both men and women are beautiful and this can be appreciated by both genders. That is the realm of aesthetics.
Asthetics are rather a non-issue in regard to nature. We are machines programmed to do one thing- procreate. This is what we call a "selected" trait. If you can't make insulin, your gene pool dies. If you don't procreate, your gene pool dies.

Wrong, we are programmed to fuck (or gain orgasm)

So attraction toward a gender which allows your genes to prosper is of paramount importance and therefore fundamentally different than your favorite color. Nature doesn't care what color you like, just as long as you make babies.

Since when is nature assigned caring?

Color preference is NOT inherited. It is influenced by life experiences and aesthetics. My Indian co-workers definitely choose different colors to dress themselves in as these colors are more flattering to their skin color. We all, to some degree, have a concept of color coordination. If we don't, other people let us know. My favorite color is navy blue, because that is the color that attracts the most positive response from females. When I was a child, my favorite color was green, because that is the color of money. If I get a good tan, my favorite color is white.

So one choice effects the propagation of our gene pool, which is what we were made to do. The other has no bearing on survival or procreation, whatsoever, and if we think about, we CAN actually come up with a reason for why we chose a favorite color.

Not everyone can though. I use the color thingie 'cause it's simple. I was waiting for someone to say, "Well I like black 'cause it is what Batman wears and he's cool." Even certain paintings invoke a certain response where the "why" can't be proven scientifically. There is something in life that spurred this liking and one isn't born with it. One example you gave had nothing to with invoking an emotional response from you but rather you chose the color for a perceived emotional response of women.

It is important to look at the big picture. We think that someone living to 90 is old, but what is that in relation to 10,000 years. Why do we die? The truth is that our genomes shut us down. We kill ourselves. This shut down mode starts as soon as our reproductive capabilities slow down.

I don't know if it's been proven why we shut down or how it relates to what we are talking about.

Arousal is the distinquishing element. Your taste in women may change, but it will always be women, and never men, unless you are homosexual or bisexual.

How does one know this?

I would go so far as to say that if you engage in sex with men simply for the orgasm, but are not aroused by them, you are not gay, you are kinda gross though. It is more like social masturbation. If you want to lay around on the couch and cuddle with men and watch a movie, you are definitely gay.

How does one do this? If a man is in jail, previously heterosexual, looks at another man's ass, gets wood, and starts pounding him in the ass, how is that NOT homosexual?

[QUOTE=hobbes]I may change what I find most attractive, but I won't change the gender.

Ahhh but people do. I've seen it in numerous women. I think as gay lifestyle becomes more accepted so will gender jumping. The many don't change now is because of social pressures and stigma that are still pervasive in our society. For example, I think it's nasty (at least for men) .

I think extreme early trauma can alter a child, such a molestation by a trusted family member, but this is rather a "learned aversion" type situation.

It's called environment. Why does one child that is molested by a man (or woman) turn out gay and another may not? Some don't avert ya know.

I think children brought up in a culture that scorns heterosexual behavior, will just create a lot of conflicted children. Why do I feel this way when everyone says it's wrong. Why do I go against the grain. I don't want to feel the way I do.

And that is what we see with our gay population. They ARE gay despite not wanting to be. Despite execution in some societies, despite becoming a family outcast, despite being ostracized in the community. Some do cave in to society and get married, they want to be straight, they want to be normal. Then 10 years down the road they come out of the closet. They say that they have always been gay.

Can you change your real desires (not actions) if society told you to? I would still like a woman with a fat ass because it riles me up. Whether I act on my desires with risk of death is another story. People are still getting infected with AIDS despite preachings of abstinence and condom usage.

A choice, a decision to be like a "mom" they admire? Seems to me most people are kicking and screaming against this lifestyle. As jpol says some people just accept it and live comfortably, others live a secret life and others are riddled with guilt.

All that proves is no matter what, you like what you like.

[hobbes]

big butts!

[Busyman]

big butts!

...and for me...

1. Tall

2. Muscular legs.

3. Tits don't have to be big but at least a big handful.

4. Pretty face (of course)

5. Flat stomach but not necessarily a six-pack (I don't like a rippling woman )

6. Toned arms (again not bulging and rippling)

7. Small waist

8. Hips like this < >

equals a 10.

I like an Amazon woman tall in high heels.

I've been with probably 8 perfect 10's in my lifetime and among others, I ended up pulling an all night sperm dumpsterfest.

[JPaul]

You can't answer a "this or that" post with a "yes", that's just confusing.

Yes you can, I just did.

Here's another example

Q. Did you go to the town on the bus or the train ?

A. Yes

The answer is perfectly valid

However if the question started with a which, that would be different.

Q. Which mode of transport did you use to go into town ?

A. Bus.

Do you see.