Is it in the Genes?

[Busyman]

[QUOTE=hobbes]

I fully support everything I said in that thread.

The initial post concerned a person who was both homeless and a beggar, using a dog to make a few extra bucks. A dog that will likely be trashed when his cuteness is gone. I stated that these people chose this homeless existence as a lifestyle.

That is the reality.

Some people can lose their homes due to bad luck financially or natural disasters, but these people DON'T turn to begging.

It is unclear to me why I needed to clarify such an obvious distinction. It seems that some are more interested in taking offense than attempting to understand why one posts as he does.

That is why explaining ones potential bias is so important and why in another thread, I mentioned my fathers career.

Have you people ever heard of a straw horse?

It is a specious argument about a subject that obsures the real motivation of the author. Instead of telling you why he is really offended, he creates the straw horse as his pretend offense as a diversion, as he is too insecure to reveal the real reason why he is upset.

Ffs hobbes, I didn't need a real explanation. I'm fucking around.

But since you mentioned it....

Your explanation of the why is out in left field. Sometimes the reasons people say certain things are just that and there is nothing to read between the lines.

To be extreme...it's as if I said "black" and you come with "you meant white" and your rationale would be due to something like my age, race, height, blahblahblah...
I have become very much in tune with "the minds of people" and with how people sprout off bullshit but.....

Sometimes it's just simply.....

"black"

[hobbes]

[QUOTE=Busyman]

Ffs hobbes, I didn't need a real explanation. I'm fucking around.

But since you mentioned it....

Your explanation of the why is out in left field. Sometimes the reasons people say certain things are just that and there is nothing to read between the lines.

To be extreme...it's as if I said "black" and you come with "you meant white" and your rationale would be due to something like my age, race, height, blahblahblah...
I have become very much in tune with "the minds of people" and with how people sprout off bullshit but.....

Sometimes it's just simply.....

"black"

But, I understand that. I wanted to point out when it is not. The offense in that thread was specious bullshit.

[Busyman]

Appearing learned usually through googling.

We all "google" for convenience.

I used it to find an article on homosexuality.

I don't really deal in that area so I am not up on the latest story, but I have complete understanding of the inheritence of genetic traits. Sure, the authors location on the genome was not supported, but there was no conclusion that genetics was not the cause, just a quibble about where it was.

Just like Einstein died 20 years before his theory of relativity was experimentally proven, he like I, understand what we are talking about and are confident that it is just a matter of time that we are proven correct.

A single study does not a Googlemaster-make. I understand what I am talking about, and the exact genetic locus is not really an issue. Being "gay" is genetic/hormonal and not a concious choice. That is 100% accurate.

What astounds me is that Busyman feels that he is in a position to make the call about who is legit and who is not. A man who has no formal training in the area of biology and has only popular exposure to the literature.

What extreme arrogance, no?

I missed this post initially...

Extreme arrogance?

You say being gay is genetic/hormonal based on the "latest" study which is unproven.

That's just fucking stupid.

It pigeon holes anyone who "feels" a certain way to a genetic/hormonal trait.

That's just fucking stupid.

So how the fuck is something that's unproven "100% accurate".

I don't have a choice in how I feel (which includes what I like) but your statement
"Being "gay" is genetic/hormonal and not a concious choice."

is only half right and that's the latter half.

I'll put it to you a better way....

ANYONE is capable of being gay.

It all depends on environment and timing.

This doesn't just apply to being gay. It applies to everything from what color you like, to what sport you like.

A child with gay parents may or may not turn out gay
A family of basketball players may have that 4th child that may or may not even like watching the sport.

The boy that wants to mimic mommy and dress in skirts at age 11 is hardly case for "he has gay genetics/hormones".

You lot are trying to pin something you will never pin....

Why every person likes what they like.

[Busyman]

[QUOTE=hobbes]

But, I understand that. I wanted to point out when it is not. The offense in that thread was specious bullshit.

Oic.

You came off as arrogant though. You were telling everyone that your rationale was positively the correct one when in actuality, it was far-fetched.

I've buried my head in books most of my life and been around the same folk, from TAG in my early childhood to "table" members...but many lacked an acute creative side which I feel is needed to open up to a real understanding of the mind.

Book knowledge is great but one must really buckle down to really understand people.

[hobbes]

You say being gay is genetic/hormonal based on the "latest" study which is unproven.

That's just fucking stupid.

I made my decision based on my understanding of biology and genetics. I then went to the web to look for articles on the subject.

So my opinion was formed based on my experience and knowledge, not based on a google search. The google search was to provide something that anyone could look at. In googling we find that my opinion is supported by both the American Medical Association and American Psychiatric Association.

The time from suspecting that something is true until actual confirmation can be lengthy, as per the Einstein example. He knew he was right as he had confidence in his theory, but science failed to prove him right until he had been dead and buried 20 years.

Genetics determines many of or likes/dislikes but it is so automatic that we don't even understand or notice this. We like to think we are making a choice, but there really is no choice to be made.

Why does steak smell good? A choice, no-genetics-it is a good source of energy.

Everything we do is influenced by the programming of our brains, which is genetic.

Do we have to learn pain? Did we see mommy get hurt and want to be hurt as well? No, it is automatic. But guess what, pain does not exist, that is a programmed perception. An inherited self defense to keep stupid animals from continuing to do things that will kill them.

Some people cannot feel pain, it is a genetic/developmental disorder.

For some things, the genetic/developmental link is staight forward. For other more complex behaviors the link is not so apparent. As humans we crave the feeling of autonomy, so we like to think that things that we do are decisions that we conciously make, but we are often deluding ourselves. It was right there in our blueprints and we are just acting as planned.




















:[/QUOTE]

[Busyman]

You say being gay is genetic/hormonal based on the "latest" study which is unproven.

That's just fucking stupid.

I made my decision based on my understanding of biology and genetics. I then went to the web to look for articles on the subject.

So my opinion was formed based on my experience and knowledge, not based on a google search. The google search was to provide something that anyone could look at. In googling we find that my opinion is supported by both the American Medical Association and American Psychiatric Association.

The time from suspecting that something is true until actual confirmation can be lengthy, as per the Einstein example. He knew he was right as he had confidence in his theory, but science failed to prove him right until he had been dead and buried 20 years.

Genetics determines many of or likes/dislikes but it is so automatic that we don't even understand or notice this. We like to think we are making a choice, but there really is no choice to be made.

Why does steak smell good? A choice, no-genetics-it is a good source of energy.

Everything we do is influenced by the programming of our brains, which is genetic.

Do we have to learn pain? Did we see mommy get hurt and want to be hurt as well? No, it is automatic. But guess what, pain does not exist, that is a programmed perception. An inherited self defense to keep stupid animals from continuing to do things that will kill them.

Some people cannot feel pain, it is a genetic/developmental disorder.

For some things, the genetic/developmental link is staight forward. For other more complex behaviors the link is not so apparent. As humans we crave the feeling of autonomy, so we like to think that things that we do are decisions that we conciously make, but we are often deluding ourselves. It was right there in our blueprints and we are just acting as planned.

I agree with just about everything you said.

However...

Why does steak smell good? A choice, no-genetics-it is a good source of energy.

Is somewhat flawed.

Everyone doesn't think steak smells good.

I don't know why you mention choice either. I sure don't. You can't choose feelings.

[Money Fist]

this topic is rolling into the field of natural instincts
dont get it twisted

[Busyman]

this topic is rolling into the field of natural instincts
dont get it twisted

Yup. I have the natural instinct to fuck.

I have no choice in what attracts me and have a choice in who I fuck.

What attracts me can change.

[JPaul]

[QUOTE=Busyman]

Everyone doesn't think steak smells good.

I do

[Snee]

I don't think that the fact that steak smells good is proof of anything you've inherited.

It could be, as the human race has been using fire so long now that the smell of charred flesh has become hard-coded into whatever genes there are that govern our instincts. But the fact that there are quite a few people who don't like the smell, and the fact that it's so easy to build up an aversion against if you turn vegetarian, points to that it should be something reliant on association.

Most of us have eaten solid foods since before we could remember, that's ample time to learn how to associate certain generic smells to something positive, without us ever knowing we have, in later life.

As for sexual preference, what I know has been proven is that we, operating on our senses of smell (phermones) and sight, pick individuals that A) have genetic material most different to ours, most especially the genes that govern our immune defense, as that makes for a better immune system in a possible child. This is also a safe-guard against inbreeding. B) We pick individuals we either associate with something positive (some trait our parents might have had, for instance) or who we find exotic (this again promotes diversity, although people do tend to avoid something too exotic, I think, though this is just a personal observation), sometimes opposites attract, and sometimes we seek comfort in that which is familiar. C) We avoid assymetry as far as we can, as an assymetrical body-shape or a face can be a tell-tale sign of illness or damage which would make for a bad partner.

To complicate things further we can override all of these instincts (in some they aren't working properly, think of parents that abuse their children and such) if the situation calls for it, say if our only means of genetic survival means we have to mate with someone who doesn't fit all the criteria, maybe because the population is too small.

Now, in the case of homosexuality (which I'm not trying to attach any positive or negative value to here), I've never heard of any purely genetic mechanisms that would make us chose same-sex partners above others. I've read that there is no such thing as absolute heterosexuality, other primates use sex as a means of bonding and recreation, and not just heterosexual sex, but nothing I've ever read points to exclusive homosexuality passing from parent to child on a purely genetic basis.

What I do believe, is that the percentage of (not just openly) homosexual individuals in the population changes with how acceptable it is, culturally. And seeing as the potential for it may be something we all carry with us, it's a more or less unconcious choice we can make, and if it's, for example, something our culture, and perhaps our parents seem to find all right, then more of us will make that choice.

The only real genetic predispositions we have for sex that I know of affect procreation, and the creation of the best possible offspring (A, B & C), and of course recreation/bonding (the primates). Far too generic, I think, to classify someone's genetic material as decidedly gay.