I would like to argue something pretty important to me.

[lynx]

or lives in the antipodes.

How clever of you to work that out.

We mods have better methods.

[Biggles]

or lives in the antipodes.

How clever of you to work that out.

We mods have better methods.

Apologies for using Luddite techniques.

[RioDeLeo]

Also, Rio either works the night shift or lives in the antipodes.

Yes and yes, BrisVegas.

This Billy fella must have been quite famous l take it, should l be flattered for the association?

[Biggles]

Also, Rio either works the night shift or lives in the antipodes.

Yes and yes, BrisVegas.

This Billy fella must have been quite famous l take it, should l be flattered for the association?

Perhaps.

[Snee]

You really are losing all credibility now, posting these lies and crap. l must admit though to a chuckle when l read your bit about Syria not wanting the Golan Heights back, classic!

Seeing as your links aren't exactly unbiased or extremely reliable, and because you really do seem to be to have some real issues with all israelis, you lost yours first, I'd say. And can you prove they are all lies, or crap for that matter?

Secondly, remember Vietnam? Think about how many soldiers lost their marbles in Vietnam, now consider the fact that this is a very common thing in extremely hostile situations.

It's extrememly bad that it happens, but killings such as the one that article describes need not necessarily be indicative of that the soldier(s) involved were under orders to kill the child, or trained to do so.

Rather they might well have succumbed to the pressure.

A real problem with the israeli army is that, given the percieved need to defend everything, there aren't enough experienced soldiers to go around which makes for a lot of mistakes.

"What goes on" according to you, is neither indicative of a norm nor something that most israelis want.


As for the settlers firing from the rooftops, I assume it was the same kind of settler that isn't supposed to be settling anything, ie illegal settlers. Israel has its right wing nutter fundamentalists too, but they are nowhere near a majority of the population. And it still doesn't make the bulk of the Israeli population into villains or somesuch, or the word "israeli" into something vile.

And I always wonder about these comments about them having the approval of the army.


Having said that, I don't think it's any more right than suicide bombings, which is something equally insane. But the only thing you've proven is that a small element of the Israeli population have gone as nuts as the suicide bombers.

List of Palestinian children killed by Israelis in 2000 lists Palestinian infants, children and youth killed by Israeli soldiers and civilians in 2000 after the beginning of the al-Aqsa Intifada on September 30, 2000.

You can also see the list of israeli children who were murdered by suicide bombs HERE

30 September 2000
Nizar Aida, 16, of Ramallah, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to chest.
Khaled Bazyan, 15, of Nablus, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to head.
Muhammad al-Durrah, 12, of Bureij camp, Gaza, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to abdomen and chest.
1 October 2000
Muhammad Dawood, 15, of el-Bireh, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to head.
Sara Hassan, 18 months, of Nablus, killed in car by Israeli settler gunfire to head.
Samer Tabanja, 10, of Nablus, killed by Israeli forces helicopter gunfire to head.
Sami Taramsi, 17, of Gaza, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to head.
2 October 2000
Wael Qattawi, 16, of Balata camp, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to head.
Muhammad Sajdi, 17, of Jericho, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to abdomen.
3 October 2000
Husam Hamshari, 16, of Tulkarm, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to head.
Ammar Rifai, 17, of Maghazi camp, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to head.
4 October 2000
Muhammad Abu Asi, 9, of Khan Yunis, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to chest.
6 October 2000
Majdi Misilmani, 15, of Beit Hanina, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to heart.
Muhammad Tammam, 17, of Tulkarm, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to chest.
8 October 2000
Yusif Khalaf, 17, of Rafah camp, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to head.
11 October 2000
Sami Silmi, 17, of Tulkarm, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to chest.
12 October 2000
Sami Abu Jazar, 12, of Rafah, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to head.
14 October 2000
Ala Ahmad, 10, of Nablus, died of burst appendix after Israeli army denied access to hospital.
16 October 2000
Muayad Abu Jawarish, 14, of Aida camp, Bethlehem, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to head.
20 October 2000
Samer Awaisi, 15, of Qalqilya, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to upper body.
Ala Bani Nimra, 13, of Salfit, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to chest.
Muhammad Abu Tahun, 17, of Tulkarm, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to chest and neck.
21 October 2000
Majid Hawamdeh, 15, of el-Bireh, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to head.
Omar Ibheisi, 16, of Deir el-Balah, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to upper body.
22 October 2000
Wael Emad, 16, of Jabalyah camp, killed by Israeli forces rubber coated bullet to head.
Salah Nijmi, 15, of Maghazi camp, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to heart.
23 October 2000
Ashraf Habayeb, 15, of Nablus, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to head.
24 October 2000
Nidal Dbeiki, 17, of Gaza, killed by Israeli forces gunfire (fragmenting bullet) to abdomen.
Iyyad Shath, 14, of Khan Yunis, killed by Israeli forces rubber coated bullet to head.
26 October 2000
Ala Jawabra, 14, of Hebron, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to head.
27 October 2000
Bashir Shalawit (deaf), 16, of Qalqilya, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to abdomen.
29 October 2000
Husni Najjar, 14, of Rafah camp, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to head.
1 November 2000
Muhammad Hajjaj, 15, of Gaza, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to head.
Ibrahim Omar, 15, of Shati camp, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to chest.
Ahmad Abu Tayeh, 13, of Shati camp, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to head.
2 November 2000
Khaled Khatib, 17, of Jerusalem, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to chest.
3 November 2000
Rami Abdel-Fattah, 15, of Jerusalem, killed by Israeli forces gunfire (fragmenting bullet) to upper body.
5 November 2000
Maher Saidi, 16, of Bureij camp, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to head.
6 November 2000
Wajdi Hattab, 13, of Tulkarm, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to chest.
Muhammad Jazar, 16, of Rafah camp, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to head.
Muhammad Taban, 17, of Deir el-Balah, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to back.
7 November 2000
Ahmad Khuffash, 7, of Salfit, hit by a car driven by Israeli settlers.
8 November 2000
Fares Audeh, 16, of Hebron, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to upper body.
Raed Dawood, 14, of Salfit, killed by Israeli forces gunfire (fragmenting bullet) to pelvis.
Muhammad Abu Ghali, 15, of Khan Yunis, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to chest.
Ibrahim Qassas, 17, of Khan Yunis, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to head.
Khalil Abu Saad, 15, of Shati camp, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to chest.
Khaled Abu Zahra, 17, of Nur Shams camp, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to upper body.
10 November 2000
Usama Azouka, 14, of Jenin, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to upper body.
Usama Jirjawi, 17, of Gaza, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to chest.
11 November 2000
Musa Dibs, 15, of Jabliyah camp, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to chest.
12 November 2000
Mahmoud Abu Naji, 16, of Khan Yunis, killed by Israeli forces sniper fire to chest.
13 November 2000
Yahya Abu Shamalah, 17, of Khan Yunis, killed by Israeli forces sniper fire to back and heart.
14 November 2000
Muhammad Ajla, 13, of Gaza, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to head.
Saber Barash, 15, of Amari camp, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to upper body.
15 November 2000
Ahmad Basal, 13, of Deir el-Balah, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to heart and back.
Jadou Abu Iqbash, 16, of Hebron, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to chest.
Ibrahim Jeaidi, 15, of Qalqilya, killed by Israeli forces gunfire (fragmenting bullet) to upper body.
Muhammad Shurafi, 17, of Gaza, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to head.
16 November 2000
Jihad Abu Shahmeh, 11, of Khan Yunis, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to head.
17 November 2000
Muhammad Abu Rayan, 16, of Halhoul, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to face.
19 November 2000
Abdul Rahman Dahshan, 14, of Maghazi camp, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to chest.
20 November 2000
Ibrahim Othman, 16, of Rafah, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to upper body.
21 November 2000
Yasser Abdul Rahim, 16, of Tulkarm, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to chest.
22 November 2000
Ibrahim Moqanan, 15, of Khan Yunis, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to head.
23 November 2000
Maram Hassouna, 3, of el-Bireh, died of [[asphyxiation after inhaling Israeli forces tear gas.
24 November 2000
Majdi Abed, 15, of Gaza, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to head.
25 November 2000
Abdul Minem Izzidin, 17, of Jenin, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to head.
28 November 2000
Karam Kurd, 14, of Rafah, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to head.
29 November 2000
Muhammad Mashrawi, 14, of Gaza, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to head.
30 November 2000
Wael Badan, 17, of Bethlehem, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to upper body.
Shadi Zaghoul, 14, of Husan, .hit by a car driven by Israeli settler and left to bleed to death.
1 December 2000
Muhammad Arja, 12, of Rafah, killed by Israeli sniper fire to neck.
5 December 2000
Ramzi Bayatnah, 15, of Ramallah, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to head.
8 December 2000
Ammar Mashni, 16, of Jerusalem, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to head.
Mutaz Teilakh, 16, of Ramallah, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to head.
9 December 2000
Salim Hameida, 13, of Rafah, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to head.
11 December 2000
Ahmad Qawasmi, 14, of Hebron, killed by Israeli forces (point blank) gunshot to head.
15 December 2000
Muhammad Dawood, 16, of Nablus, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to upper body.
20 December 2000
Hani Sufi, 14, of Rafah, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to upper body.
22 December 2000
Arafat Jabarin, 16, of Hebron, killed by Israeli forces gunfire to head.

Source = Wikipedia

That too is very bad, and someone should indeed be held accountable. But how many of these children died because they stood in the middle of a crowd throwing rocks, bottles and whatever they could get their hands on at israelis? And how many were killed by rubber bullets?

I don't think the killers on the israeli side should go on as they do, and they are guilty of their share of atrocities, sure enough, but I don't think your way of arguing makes for a fair judgement at all.

[Busyman]

I don't think so, lefty was such a coward he always used proxies.

That's not something we can accuse billy of doing.

Ok then, 1234?

[Busyman]

That too is very bad, and someone should indeed be held accountable. But how many of these children died because they stood in the middle of a crowd throwing rocks, bottles and whatever they could get their hands on at israelis? And how many were killed by rubber bullets?

I don't think the killers on the israeli side should go on as they do, and they are guilty of their share of atrocities, sure enough, but I don't think your way of arguing makes for a fair judgement at all.

I bet that there are many Israeli's that would just be done with it and want to wipe out all of the Palestinans. I could easily see how this mindset would come about.

Just like I could understand a Palestinian father that hears his only son was collateral damage in an Israeli rocket attack. Instead of looking at his own as partly responsible he then decides to walk in a cafe with a bombbackpack.

For the most part I think that Palestinians want peace. However I think there is an evil contingent in that country and the Arab world for that matter that ignores a ceasefire just to start up the violence again....on both sides.

Someone asked why would somone be a suicide bomber. Keep in mind that Islam is a much more seious religion than most. When I say much more serious I mean it involves much more regimen than say Christianity. Take Christianity then add that you must eat halal meat and no pork, wash a certain way, pray 5 times a day and in a certain matter, etc. Then tell those, which are many, a twisted version of jihad is something they should embark on and also add that they lost a loved one.

Suicide bomber.

[RioDeLeo]

Someone asked why would someone be a suicide bomber.

In normal circumstances l couldn't be a suicide bomber, having no religious beliefs means l have no concept of an afterlife, so this is it for me, l'm very picky about what circumstances l would lay down my life for.

However, l would gladly die to save the lives of my kids, so l can imagine that someone who loves their "God" as much as l love my kids would be willing to die if they believed that what they were doing was right.

l have no doubt that every (Muslim) suicide bomber really believes they are carrying out the work of Allah. They aren't doing it as a prank, and they aren't criminals in that sense, and they believe they will go straight to wherever it is that suicide bombers go.

[JPaul]

Someone asked why would somone be a suicide bomber. Keep in mind that Islam is a much more seious religion than most. When I say much more serious I mean it involves much more regimen than say Christianity. Take Christianity then add that you must eat halal meat and no pork, wash a certain way, pray 5 times a day and in a certain matter, etc. Then tell those, which are many, a twisted version of jihad is something they should embark on and also add that they lost a loved one.

That pretty much sums it up.

That and certain salvation for martyrs pretty much gets you all the murderers you can use.

[Snee]

That too is very bad, and someone should indeed be held accountable. But how many of these children died because they stood in the middle of a crowd throwing rocks, bottles and whatever they could get their hands on at israelis? And how many were killed by rubber bullets?

I don't think the killers on the israeli side should go on as they do, and they are guilty of their share of atrocities, sure enough, but I don't think your way of arguing makes for a fair judgement at all.

I bet that there are many Israeli's that would just be done with it and want to wipe out all of the Palestinans. I could easily see how this mindset would come about.

Just like I could understand a Palestinian father that hears his only son was collateral damage in an Israeli rocket attack. Instead of looking at his own as partly responsible he then decides to walk in a cafe with a bombbackpack.

For the most part I think that Palestinians want peace. However I think there is an evil contingent in that country and the Arab world for that matter that ignores a ceasefire just to start up the violence again....on both sides.

I reckon there are more nutters than there should be on both sides.

To be honest I don't think, at this point, that's it's possible to say that one side is completely right or indeed right at all, and one is not, anymore.

The only thing I'll argue against are those comments that are aimed to make villains of one side or another, as, while neither side is without guilt, there are reasons to what happens that go beyond something easily quantifiable as right or wrong.

But a majority of both peoples isn't guilty of any warcrimes, thefts or atrocities.


I do think that most people, anywhere really, would prefer to live and let live. But, like you, I can certainly see how people on both sides would lose their balance in the face of murders and atrocities.