I would like to argue something pretty important to me.

[Snee]

Rafi, I think you need a little enlightenment about the situation of the settlements in the occupied land. I'll give you one example, but it is typical of what happened all over the West Bank. This was related to me by my uncle (by marriage). I won't reveal his name without his family's permission, so you will have to trust me when I say that he was one of the most respected theologians in the Catholic church.

In the early 1980's my uncle and aunt lived in the outskirts of Jerusalem. Their neighbours on a small but prosperous farm were an old Arab man and his family, who had lived there for more generations than they could remember. One day the old man was approached and offered a pittance for his land, naturally he declined the offer. Almost immediately he was presented with papers from an Israeli court telling him to leave, and that the land had been "proved" to be owned by the person who had madet the offer. The old man had not even had an opportunity to argue his case. The court did not even have proper jurisdiction, but it is impossible to argue with a bunch of soldiers forcing you out at gunpoint.

My point is that this is how much of the land occupied by the West Bank settlers was obtained. You seem to think that "stolen land" was the result of the 6 day war. I think my example shows that the theft actually took place much later, it was not the result of war but of greedy settlers, aided and abetted by corrupt lawyers and judges. It is hardly surprising that the original owners want their land back.

Can't speak for tralala, but I know this is something that went on, and still goes on.

My argument, if you were thinking of me as well, is that the settlers living in areas settled before they were born, or while they still were children, cannot be seen as guilty of theft, and that taking away their homes is wrong too.

And, as far as I know, most of the stolen land was taken quite some time ago, I believe Israel got greatly enlarged after the war and that a lot of the further settlements came into being between 1967 and 1980 or thereabouts.

If this took place outside of the jurisdiction of the Israeli courts, and since it happened as you told it, and I have no doubt that this wasn't an isolated incident, it was by every account illegal, and this includes by israeli law.

Obviously, if this still goes on today (and I hear it does), something should be done about this, not only by the stolen land being returned (assuming the original settler-thief still inhabits the place), but also a serious inquiry into which officials allowed this to happen.



Rather, however, than doing what "Rio" seems to propose, and drive every settler and his children out, some form of compromise must be reached, wherein those who aren't guilty of theft, who didn't steal land as you describe, aren't punished, even if their land was originally taken from someone.

[Rat Faced]

The thefts came after the establishment of "International Law", and Israel is a member of the United Nations, therfore recognising this law.

I have no sympathy for any settlers losing their land, as it was never theirs.

I have just as little sympathy for the Brits and others buying houses in Northern Cyprus now finding that the Greeks want their land back.

Everyone that is educated knows the history of the land in both cases.

Tough.

If you buy a car in the UK and it turns out to be stolen, it still belongs to the original owner (or the insurance company), the fact that you paid money for that car is immaterial.. you should have checked first.

The same principle applies.

I feel sorry for the disruption in their lives, no more than that.

[tralalala]

@Gepper:

So how do you stop modern terrorism?

[GepperRankins]

@Gepper:

So how do you stop modern terrorism?

i don't know if it's been brought up already... compromise

[JPaul]

The thefts came after the establishment of "International Law", and Israel is a member of the United Nations, therfore recognising this law.

I have no sympathy for any settlers losing their land, as it was never theirs.

I have just as little sympathy for the Brits and others buying houses in Northern Cyprus now finding that the Greeks want their land back.

Everyone that is educated knows the history of the land in both cases.

Tough.

If you buy a car in the UK and it turns out to be stolen, it still belongs to the original owner (or the insurance company), the fact that you paid money for that car is immaterial.. you should have checked first.

The same principle applies.

I feel sorry for the disruption in their lives, no more than that.

Caveat emptor, eh RF.

[Snee]

The thefts came after the establishment of "International Law", and Israel is a member of the United Nations, therfore recognising this law.

I have no sympathy for any settlers losing their land, as it was never theirs.

I have just as little sympathy for the Brits and others buying houses in Northern Cyprus now finding that the Greeks want their land back.

Everyone that is educated knows the history of the land in both cases.

You can't argue that way, imagine being born in a place, growing up there, and finally inheriting it, only to find out you were losing it because of something that happened 30 years ago. And also, imagine thinking it was all legal, 'cos it was, according to the laws of the country you live in.

That doesn't work, and it's hardly more fair than throwing the palestinians out in the first place.

[Rat Faced]

@Gepper:

So how do you stop modern terrorism?

You look at the reasons for it, then see what you can do to remove the reasons.

There are many reasons..

In Israel, its the Palestinian question and occupied territories

In Turkey and Spain, its because of sepratists wanting Independance.

In Iraq, its because of an illegal war and the foreign policy of western nations that then get targeted too.

In USA its a combination of the Israel/Palestine question, whereby the USA is blatently playing favourites, aggrevated by the events after 911.



The only FACTS: is that the "fight against terrorism" as its now being fought, has increased the number of terrorists 3fold easily. And the number of sympathisers have increased significantly more than that.

Thats not the way to fight terrorism or make the world safer.

[Rat Faced]

The thefts came after the establishment of "International Law", and Israel is a member of the United Nations, therfore recognising this law.

I have no sympathy for any settlers losing their land, as it was never theirs.

I have just as little sympathy for the Brits and others buying houses in Northern Cyprus now finding that the Greeks want their land back.

Everyone that is educated knows the history of the land in both cases.

You can't argue that way, imagine being born in a place, growing up there, and finally inheriting it, only to find out you were losing it because of something that happened 30 years ago. And also, imagine thinking it was all legal, 'cos it was, according to the laws of the country you live in.

That doesn't work, and it's hardly more fair than throwing the palestinians out in the first place.

I just did.

There is no "Law of Conquest" and has not been since the end of World War II.

Israel wanted recognition, it got it.

It wished to join the UN and did.

It therefore must accept its responsibilities, which it doesnt.


Can you name one other country that will not allow the UN to inspect its Nuclear Program? That includes places like Iran and North Korea.

It repays the favours of countries such as the US by selling its secrets and blowing up its naval vessels.

Israel wants its own way, without regard to anyone else.

It wants its cake and to eat it...

Well, if it wishes to be viewed as a "western" nation, then it should start acting as such, instead of a spoilt child that throws a tantrum when anyone says anything against it.

[lynx]

Rafi, you've missed the point.

The land was occupied after the 6 day war, occupation refers to who controls the day to day running of the territory involved, not who owns the individual parcels of land.

By and large the inhabitants stayed on their land. They may have got out of the way for a short time while the fighting took place, but for the most part they returned to their farms and smallholdings.

The trouble is some of them returned to find an Israeli squatter living in their home. Other's were forcibly evicted in the manner I indicated. That's not a result of war, it is pure simple theft, there isn't any other way to describe it, and it had the backing of the Israeli courts, army and (possibly by neglect) the Israeli parliament. Theft of a parcel of land is a completely different concept from occupation of a territory.

That's why all the illegal settlements in the occupied zones should be removed.

SnnY, I disagree with your assessment of the situation. Given that these illegal settlements were established with the blessing of the Israeli legal machinery, it is up to them to compensate any evicted settlers, if indeed you feel that there should be any compensation for the perpetrators of theft.

[Rat Faced]

Rafi, you've missed the point.

The land was occupied after the 6 day war, occupation refers to who controls the day to day running of the territory involved, not who owns the individual parcels of land.

By and large the inhabitants stayed on their land. They may have got out of the way for a short time while the fighting took place, but for the most part they returned to their farms and smallholdings.

The trouble is some of them returned to find an Israeli squatter living in their home. Other's were forcibly evicted in the manner I indicated. That's not a result of war, it is pure simple theft, there isn't any other way to describe it, and it had the backing of the Israeli courts, army and (possibly by neglect) the Israeli parliament. Theft of a parcel of land is a completely different concept from occupation of a territory.

That's why all the illegal settlements in the occupied zones should be removed.

SnnY, I disagree with your assessment of the situation. Given that these illegal settlements were established with the blessing of the Israeli legal machinery, it is up to them to compensate any evicted settlers, if indeed you feel that there should be any compensation for the perpetrators of theft.

Said much more diplomatically than me..