I would like to argue something pretty important to me.

[tralalala]

I'm so so sorry but I think I'm gonna retire to bed..... its Midnight here and I need to get up tomorrow at 7:30 to go help out at ma wee brothers camp.....

G'night all, don't let the bed bugs bite!!


Man this has become one heck of a discussion eh? Let's keep it going this way!!


G'night once again,
Rafi *yawn*

[Jon L. Obscene]

What if I get jumped on my way to work and beaten for no reason?
What if a fight breaks out and I interfere and get stabbed?

It's all what if's and life's not like that.
Besides, you said what if someone steels her tv etc, thats a bit less important than me getting hit by a car would'nt you say?

You can not control terrorism with more guns, you get more guns so they have to out do you and get more themselfs, to teach you a lesson.

You do not fight fire with fire, you can't wn that battle.
Attacks cannot be predicted.
All they do now if they can't get on a bus is get in a taxi, or just leave a car parked.
Tell me again what good it does to have so many armed guards?

Jonno

Edit: Night dude

[NikkiD]

One should always strive for perfection even though you can't achieve it. Did Canada change any security measures after 9/11? Probably so. Why do ya think?

Yes, some measures changed. Airport security for one - you now have to go through the same security checks for domestic flights as for international. Loved ones cannot see you through to the gate anymore, they cannot come past security. The types of things that are allowed in carry on luggage has changed. All in all though, not that noticeable a difference to the average Canadian, other than an extra hour at the airport to fly to within borders. There is also now a sky marshall on each flight, though they are plain clothed and unnoticed. (so far as my mother says, I haven't been on vacation since 2000 cause I can't afford it )

Other than that, I couldn't tell you what changes have occurred here. If they have, they are not blatantly obvious to me.

Obviously a security hole was exploited so a passive attitude towards that type of thing is stupid. Plain and simple.

Now, that statement would be true, if, the government knew that terrorists planned to fly airplanes into buildings and did nothing about it. And if that is the case then the flaws are not with this "passive attitude" but with your government itself. If they knew this for a fact, and knew there were security holes at airports, and stood by and did nothing, then the blame lies with them, not with society's passive attitude. National security is the responsibility of the government, it is not the responsibility of the everyday citizen to arm themselves. When that happens, you enter the realm of martial law, and that is a dangerous place to be.

If you have young kids and rarely lock your doors, I consider that stupid.

Don't get me wrong, at night, if I'm alone with the kids, I lock the door. I'm little. During the day though, it's open, and yes, there are times when I forget, or fall asleep on the couch with it open. At the same time though, I figure locked or unlocked, if someone wants to break in badly enough, they will.

I like you gun laws btw.

They've gotten better these last few years.

[bigboab]

I flew into Prestwick Airport from Dublin the same day as the G8 leaders arrived at Prestwick. I saw an old man with a walking stick going through the security at Dublin. That walking stick might have been a 'plastic' gun. I had to take my shoes off. Bet they dont ask me to do that again.

Hundreds of police with guns and dogs etc at Prestwick. I am used to that kind of reception wherever I go.

[NikkiD]

I would like to reply to a couple posts a few pages back (I would have replied earlier but the bloody board went offline... typical.. ).

So this is what I was gonna write:

@RioDeLeo:

I pronmise one thing to you: If you take statements from a Muslim article, you will always see the Israeli guy as "the bad guy". It's a fact. Sky News in Britain always seem to show Israel as the "bad people", same with the BBC.
People always want to show how bad Israel is all the time, when they do not even consider looking at the situation from the Israeli guys side. These people hate us. We want peace, but quite a few of them don't. We offer a portion of land which is definately enough (as Israel is the only Jewish state, whereas the Palestinians could not just live in Palestine, but in 20 other countries too, so please..).

An Israeli would see a terrorist as a person looking to cause fatalities for this reason: He wants to.
Not all Arabs are terrorists, in fact, only a small percentage of them are, but unfortunately that small percentage reflects the big picture too. The same if you took a class of 30 kids. 3 kids cause havoc in every lesson. Teachers say the class is screwed up.
Small things have big reflections too you know...


@Nikki:
All houses demolished were of the families of the terrorists (i.e their mom and dads house, or their own house if they had one - most of them were too young for one of their own.......).

In todays world, we need to catch these people seeking to kill us and get them first. How do we do that? catch 'em hot handed. The other option: Invading their countries from which they operate and get them from there. The problem: Too many people will condemn that, so it wouldn't work.
Alas, the winning option is more security to catch them.

In Israel, we have lots of guards everywhere so we can walk in the streets not worrying about terrorists, as they are being caught on their way by our guards who PROTECT US. I know it sounds odd, but none of you have lived in such a country surrounded by hatred, needing to protect itself in a very big sort of way.
That is why we are not a police state.
In fact, if we could actually get peace here please god, we may not need to have compulsory army service anymore, but maybe just a minor service (like 1 year instead of 3).


Yes, I think Muslims also want a nice world, but as I wrote above, a little splurge can ruin the whole picture....


Now to the newer replies:

Nikki:
You say lets leave the armed guards, forget 'em. I'd rather be open to attacks than be protected by guards. You'd be gone within a month of that change in Israel.

Jonno:
Your example with the punch up is not a good one and unlike Busy who summed it up in 2 words I'll tell ya why in more detail:

A punch up - I hit someone. He brings backup - I stop hitting him cos I'm worried he and his backup men will hit me.
Terrorism is different. They will try and hit you even if you do have backup.
And, as Busyman said - If I hit someone and he smiles back at me, I'll make his smile fractured within a matter of 2 punches and a boot..

Countries are different, in countries you need to have someone on the watch to make sure there is no havoc, no casualties, no fatalities.
I wouldn't call myself a coward for enjoying the fact that I am safe.

You said someone with excessive guards is weak and paranoid.
I'm not weak. My mum and dad and brother aren't weak.
My friends are not weak. We are also not paranoid.
We live a perfectly normal life, just like you up untill that attack, and yes, we live like you do PLUS we are SAFE as well.

That is why I would call me a precautiose person rather a fearful and weak person.
If we had no guards and security like we do, the chances of me perishing in one of these attacks would be so much higher..!!
Could you imagine losing me Jonno, could you??????!!!!!!!!?!?!?!

I know, I sound mad, and I sound afraid of being kiled, but infact I am not. I am more afraid of losing my family and friends abroad as a result of lack of security. Forget Israels security - that's a different story - we have had too much experience in that feild unfortunately, but now we got hit, we have our backup, and it is now more difficult to hit us back.



Rafi

Whoa whoa whoa... families of terrorists????? WTF???? So now should we go out and punish murderers by tearing down the houses of their families too? That is guilt by association, and it simply wrong.

I seriously doubt that you get an unbiased view on what happens there from the Israeli media Rafi. I should think that the BBC or the SkyNews are probably closer to the truth of the matter.

You cannot possibly punish future offenders - there is no way of knowing with any certainty who they are without punishing the innocent as well. Sending someone to jail because they might set off a car bomb is totally unjust.

(had to do that quick cause I gotta run and make dinner... so it might not make sense.)

[Busyman]

Yes, some measures changed. Airport security for one - you now have to go through the same security checks for domestic flights as for international. Loved ones cannot see you through to the gate anymore, they cannot come past security. The types of things that are allowed in carry on luggage has changed. All in all though, not that noticeable a difference to the average Canadian, other than an extra hour at the airport to fly to within borders. There is also now a sky marshall on each flight, though they are plain clothed and unnoticed. (so far as my mother says, I haven't been on vacation since 2000 cause I can't afford it )

Other than that, I couldn't tell you what changes have occurred here. If they have, they are not blatantly obvious to me.

....and that's what I'm talking about.....transparency

Obviously a security hole was exploited so a passive attitude towards that type of thing is stupid. Plain and simple.

Now, that statement would be true, if, the government knew that terrorists planned to fly airplanes into buildings and did nothing about it. And if that is the case then the flaws are not with this "passive attitude" but with your government itself. If they knew this for a fact, and knew there were security holes at airports, and stood by and did nothing, then the blame lies with them, not with society's passive attitude. National security is the responsibility of the government, it is not the responsibility of the everyday citizen to arm themselves. When that happens, you enter the realm of martial law, and that is a dangerous place to be.

We are all obviously talking about the government and whether we agree with certain tactics. I hear this passive attitude towards security yet you seem cool with the changes Canada made.
The security hole on 9/11 was whether people made it on the plane with weapons (and tracking folks that aren't supposed to be here anymore). This is not known for a fact but is likely.

Security holes should be plugged without offensive crap like our Patriot Act.

[Busyman]

Our banks have no security guards, only alarms and shutters.

Jonno

Edit: Ok Busyman you got me, I actually am now not sure what it is you're dissagreeing with.
We are talking about the difference between Isreal and countries like the us and uk. And my pov is that all the extra security Isreal is pouring onto it's streets makes it look weak and that the best way to battle terrorism is to show no fear, you cannot prevent, it's impossible to fight an invisible enemy. So rather than show fear by upgrading security by giving every bobby an ak-47, we/I think it's a better policy to try to find the people responsible and get to them that way, eventually you will briong them down from the inside, meanwhile we show they have no effect on our lives and we continue to live not in fear........but just simply in our own lives.

It's pretty easy. I disagreed with post 103.

[NikkiD]

....and that's what I'm talking about.....transparency

We are all obviously talking about the government and whether we agree with certain tactics. I hear this passive attitude towards security yet you seem cool with the changes Canada made.
The security hole on 9/11 was whether people made it on the plane with weapons (and tracking folks that aren't supposed to be here anymore). This is not known for a fact but is likely.

Security holes should be plugged without offensive crap like our Patriot Act.

And with that I agree.

That has not changed my life to any visible extent. There were always security measures in airports, they have just been extended to include domestic flights. There was always a police detachment at the airport. What Rafi proposes however, is placing armed guards in malls (which are not present here now), on streets, in parking garages, on public transportation. This would cause a visible change. If I were to be stopped on the street and a guard asked to search my car or person, I would be livid, and probably ask to see a search warrant. That is the kind of protection I'm saying I don't want or need.

[3RA1N1AC]

@Nikki:
All houses demolished were of the families of the terrorists (i.e their mom and dads house, or their own house if they had one - most of them were too young for one of their own.......).

Whoa whoa whoa... families of terrorists????? WTF???? So now should we go out and punish murderers by tearing down the houses of their families too? That is guilt by association, and it simply wrong.

hmm. well, people seem fond of repeating the idea that muslims are on a completely different track from "us"... whole different idea of whats ethical/moral/true/false... and that they simply cannot be measured by "our" ethical standards. tralala's statement, and eye-for-an-eye and sins-of-the-fathers sort of stuff, makes me wonder if the same is no less true of israel. might it be a mistake to assume that just because israel's aligned to the west & supported by it, that israel's "moral compass" is pointed anywhere near the rest of ours? when someone commits a crime in my country, my first thought certainly isn't "okay, let's round up the family, knock their house down and punish them"; any culture that considers this logically & ethically acceptable is alien to me.

[RioDeLeo]

hmm. well, people seem fond of repeating the idea that muslims are on a completely different track from "us"... whole different idea of whats ethical/moral/true/false... and that they simply cannot be measured by "our" ethical standards. tralala's statement, and eye-for-an-eye and sins-of-the-fathers sort of stuff, makes me wonder if the same is no less true of israel. might it be a mistake to assume that just because israel's aligned to the west & supported by it, that israel's "moral compass" is pointed anywhere near the rest of ours? when someone commits a crime in my country, my first thought certainly isn't "okay, let's round up the family, knock their house down and punish them"; any culture that considers this logically & ethically acceptable is alien to me.

Well said.

@ Tralala: l think you are well named, you obviously live in LalaLand.

This statement ..

These people hate us. We want peace, but quite a few of them don't. We offer a portion of land which is definately enough (as Israel is the only Jewish state, whereas the Palestinians could not just live in Palestine, but in 20 other countries too, so please..).

.. is typical of your sort.

1. You hate them as much as they hate you.
2. Many, many Israelis DON'T want peace, they want all Muslims\Arabs out of "Greater Israel".
3. The "portion" of land you offer them is already theirs, along with the rest of it you stole.
4. Jews can and do live in every country in the world, they don't all have to live in Israel any more than all Catholics have to live in the Vatican.

Your earlier answer to NikkiD about terrorists houses was ably answered by 3RA1N1AC, so l will only concur with what he said.