Morality Question...

[ToraBoraDweller]

Legallity means nothing to kids !!
Law is an invention by the 'haves' to protect their property,all of Rat-faced examles apply.
(In America a famous saying goes I believe : possession is 9/10 of the law).
Now morality is altogether a different issue ;here a lot is determined by the
community you live in and how far you are willing to adapt.
It's good to teach children how both sides of the coin look and then hope for the best.
Also it would be nice to instill on them the thought that one shouldn't want to have
everything!
But we should all look into a mirror from time to time.
As for schools : be watchful indeed what they try to teach your children,too many parents
leave all too many issues solely in the hands of teachers.

[Schmiggy_JK23]

sharedaddy.. when i was younger... one thing i remember hearing alot from my elders was this...

"do as I say, not as I do"... i think in a sense, it applies here. we are all flawed as people, human beings, etc, and will do things we arent supposed to...

Yes we should lead by example, our children, our friends, etc... But being your kids... they have to realize, at some point, a difference in what you do, and what you tell them... for instance, say you drink a beer... with dinner or something, or after a hard days work... you tell them not to drink a beer, becauses its not appropriate for them, this is one of those instances. Just because you do something, it doesnt make it appropirate for them to do same thing... and in time, they should be able to make their "own" opinions on what is legal, good, moral, in the filesharing regard, instead of the schools...

untill that time... though it may seem as a cop out... i think the do as I say, not as I do, applies, if they start questioning your morality.

[ToraBoraDweller]

@Schmiggy_JK23

untill that time... though it may seem as a cop out... i think the do as I say, not as I do, applies, if they start questioning your morality.

?Does that ever work?

(What kid likes to be like his parents)

[j2k4]

Boy, lots of straight-up stuff on this thread. In my opinion, the quality of expression on this subject specifically, and other such matters in general, is on a higher plane than in other forums. A tip of the hat to all!!

I am of the "I can't justify my criminal/unethical/immoral behavior" crowd-but, if pressed, I would say the following:

I suffer from the same weakness many of us do-"I just can't help it"-and this is not aided by the fact I'm a "law-and-order conservative, blah,blah,blah,...", but if I put on my thinking cap, I would excuse myself by saying I have spent enough on albums and CDs over the years to finance the collective debt of several small African countries. I would feel better about this if my music collection were a truer reflection of the money I've invested in it. If it all went up in the smoke of a fire, I'm pretty sure insurance would look for a way to devalue it. In sum, I feel I've gotten the short end of the stick, monetarily.

When I look at the business of merchandising, I can't help but see strategies developed and business conducted based entirely on patent law, the theory of public domain, the passage of time, planned obsolescence, monopolistic (Microsoft) marketing techniques, etc.

Then I look at my shared file; I have exactly ONE file that is less than five years old, perhaps ten that are less than ten years old, and the majority of the remainder is in excess of twenty-five years old.

Whether or not this line of reasoning could be digested by a child, I wouldn't hazard a guess.

As a result of this thread and the short mental exercise it prompted, I feel much better, though that won't mean much if I am ever called to court.

[ToraBoraDweller]

Music and acting are amongst mankinds oldest skills and MEANT to be shared !
Yes it's as simple as that!
And real artists who are gifted with a truly creative mind also can find themselves with this.

[Ynhockey]

Well, i just want to say again, file sharing is NOT stealing from anyone.

Let me give a theoretical situation... let's say that you are magical like Harry Potter or something, and you can duplicate any object you want. Now, you go to the nearest convenience store and buy a bottle of RC Cola. Then you make about 1000 copies of this bottle and give it to 1000 people. They try the coke, some like it and ask you for more, some hate it, and some like it but go buy their own.

So, how did those who ask you for more steal from the coke company and/or the convenience store ? How did you steal from the store/company? After all, you bought your coke, you caused many others to buy coke, and those who asked you for more would most likely not buy RC Cola anyway. Now, they asked you for more - they know you're giving it for free and they sorta want coke, but not if they have to pay for it. So, they either get it for free from you, or they don't get it at all - how's that wrong ? Some of those who asked for more are poor - how's being poor and asking for something free that would otherwise cost money wrong ? After all, you have the right to refuse.

Now, this is exactly like filesharing. Someone buys a program and gives it for free to many ppl online. Some dl it, like it, and buy it, some dl it, like it but not enough to buy it, however, they wouldnt've bought the product anyway. Some can't afford the product. Only a really really small fraction of these people are the freedy bastards who can afford the product, like it enough to buy a legal copy, but still insist on not buying it, because it's free online. How are the others stealing from the RIAA ? They aren't.

Now, ask yourself. You have a collection of movies/software/music. You like some of it, and like some less. How much would all this cost (legally) ? I don't know how big your collection is, but my estimate would be around $100000 US. Are you that rich ? No. Therefore, you fall into the "can't afford" category. Did you buy any movies at all ? Did you go to theatres ? Most likely, yes. That's why what you're doing isn't really wrong 'cause you wouldn't spend $100000 on this stuff anyway. And the RIAA isn't exactly losing money just 'cause you downloaded music, if you wouldn't buy it anyway.

That's the message that you have to deliver to your kids - that it isn't really wrong. Besides, kids in North America are growing up rotten these days because of school - in Vancouver, Canada where i lived once, there were a bunch of kids from different countries. All the Europeans were good ppl, in a sense, except a few. The Canadians ? Well, i guess i should shut up about it... they had no morals at all, couldn't tell right from wrong at all, didn't know what honour and loyalty are, etc. etc. - so who, besides the parents, can teach these morals to the kids ? No one. Sure, the kids can teach themselves, but as i said before, kids are heavily influence by their fellows. Therefore, if the whole class thinks one thing (for example, that piracy is wrong), then one of them isn't suddenly going to change his/her opinion at least until high school, where kids start to have varied opinions on everything.

I hope you make the right decision, whatever it may be.

[ShareDaddy]

Originally posted by Ynhockey@16 May 2003 - 15:26
Well, i just want to say again, file sharing is NOT stealing from anyone.

Let me give a theoretical situation... let's say that you are magical like Harry Potter or something, and you can duplicate any object you want. Now, you go to the nearest convenience store and buy a bottle of RC Cola. Then you make about 1000 copies of this bottle and give it to 1000 people. They try the coke, some like it and ask you for more, some hate it, and some like it but go buy their own.

So, how did those who ask you for more steal from the coke company and/or the convenience store ? How did you steal from the store/company? After all, you bought your coke, you caused many others to buy coke, and those who asked you for more would most likely not buy RC Cola anyway. Now, they asked you for more - they know you're giving it for free and they sorta want coke, but not if they have to pay for it. So, they either get it for free from you, or they don't get it at all - how's that wrong ? Some of those who asked for more are poor - how's being poor and asking for something free that would otherwise cost money wrong ? After all, you have the right to refuse.

Now, this is exactly like filesharing. Someone buys a program and gives it for free to many ppl online. Some dl it, like it, and buy it, some dl it, like it but not enough to buy it, however, they wouldnt've bought the product anyway. Some can't afford the product. Only a really really small fraction of these people are the freedy bastards who can afford the product, like it enough to buy a legal copy, but still insist on not buying it, because it's free online. How are the others stealing from the RIAA ? They aren't.

Now, ask yourself. You have a collection of movies/software/music. You like some of it, and like some less. How much would all this cost (legally) ? I don't know how big your collection is, but my estimate would be around $100000 US. Are you that rich ? No. Therefore, you fall into the "can't afford" category. Did you buy any movies at all ? Did you go to theatres ? Most likely, yes. That's why what you're doing isn't really wrong 'cause you wouldn't spend $100000 on this stuff anyway. And the RIAA isn't exactly losing money just 'cause you downloaded music, if you wouldn't buy it anyway.

That's the message that you have to deliver to your kids - that it isn't really wrong. Besides, kids in North America are growing up rotten these days because of school - in Vancouver, Canada where i lived once, there were a bunch of kids from different countries. All the Europeans were good ppl, in a sense, except a few. The Canadians ? Well, i guess i should shut up about it... they had no morals at all, couldn't tell right from wrong at all, didn't know what honour and loyalty are, etc. etc. - so who, besides the parents, can teach these morals to the kids ? No one. Sure, the kids can teach themselves, but as i said before, kids are heavily influence by their fellows. Therefore, if the whole class thinks one thing (for example, that piracy is wrong), then one of them isn't suddenly going to change his/her opinion at least until high school, where kids start to have varied opinions on everything.

I hope you make the right decision, whatever it may be.

I have stated similar arguments, however it is not what is right or wrong, perceptions that my children may get of their father are the real issue.

My argument specifically to the RIAA on the subject of used music tapes/cd's is as follows. (First you have to understand that a used record store near and dear to my heart has been subjected to a lot of hassle and abuse from the RIAA regarding them selling used music, the RIAA wants a cut).

First off, if I buy a new car, let me say a Dodge Viper for instance. I just forked out 85,000 US dollars to own it. Now I drive it for a year or two and then sell it to another person. Now what the RIAA says is that DaimlerChrysler should get a percentage of the sale of my used car and that is utterly ridiculous.

Now you could almost apply this same scenario to say renting a tape or DVD, the rental place paid the movie company a large amount of money to offer it to me for rent. I then pay rent on it for the use of it for a certain amount of time, should I only be allowed to view it once? Pause it? Rewind? Replay? Alternatively, even let us say dupe it? I am in the growing majority of people who say DAMN RIGHT. Everyone has been paid and everyone is still happy, in my book that makes it all right. Now on the other hand there are a whole slew of reasons both morally and ethically based disputing my thinking. I really do not want to go into it, this string is just about the IDEA of my children being taught to think their Dad is some type of ruthless criminal. I will eventually work this out, it is just about how I work it out and how little I can make the issue become.

[Tyke]

Sharing / Piracy is going to happen. If a capitalist society is right, piracy (being a product of such a society) is also right.

Why?

Not going on a marxist rant here, mainly because I am not a marxist as such but:-

Consumerism is all around. We are shown shiny new things, and we are told that we want them. We work to get them. We have to have them, just because the Jones' next door have them.

The Jones' are on £120K p.a. I'm on £14K p.a. But I work just as damned hard and just as long.
So I want the new CDs and DVDs. But I only have my labour to sell, and my boss says my labour is only worth just under £6/hr despite the revenue that hour of my work brings in. (works out to something like £50 to me for £2000 to him)

So yeah, damn right I'll download. I can afford a fast connection (just) so I'll pay my ISP. I get a hell of a lot better value for money and more sounds per pound than I would from Virgin Megastores.

I don't really care whether some say it's wrong. I do have ethics - they just don't always fall into the boundaries of the "norm".

What I DO object to is rip-off pirates. I've released a few files onto the network - most of them are sort of "minority interest" (NO I don't mean porn) but they do get the occasional upload. I put the work into the encoding for other people's enjoyment, not for mine nor anyone else's profit. So any file you get that has been encoded by my hand will have a splash screen or a signature "not for sale" or "if you paid for this you were ripped off". The most I will accept from someone without the hardware to get stuff themselves is a pint, or the cost of the blank CD/DVD

[ShareDaddy]

Still pondering ideas folks.

[superduperman]

no matter if you teach your children the good path all the time

there will inevitabley be times when they will make the wrong decision and follow the bad path

so my theory is that being taught the right and moral way of society there will come a time when the wrong decisions will even the paths out.

but if you were to encourage the bad path this may tip the balance and lead to a neverending path of badness

i know it sounds a bit crazy but sit back and think about it

all of us i assume were brought up to "do the right thing" yet how many of us are saints

yet think of someone you know somebodey who is a criminal doesnt have to be a hardened criminal

and think back to their attitude as a youth usually it the i dont care attitude
this usually comes from the i dont care or i have no time parents

that my opinion anyway

but remember even if this theory is correct there will always be strays and unexpected ones that turn out the oposite