Will Blair Face Consequenses

[Barbarossa]

Originally posted by JPaul@15 June 2003 - 22:02

The big difference is that we have a seriously healthy economy. Interests rates are lower than they have been for years, if not decades and fewer people are losing their homes because they cannot afford 12% mortgage rates.

Healthy economy?

The only reason the economy looks good on paper is because of the housing market and consumer spending boom, most of it funded by massive credit because of low interest rates.

The manufacturing industry is actually suffering zero growth, and this is not likely to improve anytime soon, because imports are so cheap.

Collectively, the British consumer is in debt to something in the order of 7 BILLION pounds! That's hardly what I would call healthy...

[j2k4]

Originally posted by barbarossa@16 June 2003 - 08:52
[Collectively, the British consumer is in debt to something in the order of 7 BILLION pounds! That's hardly what I would call healthy... 

Only 7 billion pounds?

Pikers!

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by barbarossa+16 June 2003 - 14:52--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (barbarossa @ 16 June 2003 - 14:52)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-JPaul@15 June 2003 - 22:02

The big difference is that we have a seriously healthy economy. Interests rates are lower than they have been for years, if not decades and fewer people are losing their homes because they cannot afford 12% mortgage rates.

Healthy economy?

The only reason the economy looks good on paper is because of the housing market and consumer spending boom, most of it funded by massive credit because of low interest rates.

The manufacturing industry is actually suffering zero growth, and this is not likely to improve anytime soon, because imports are so cheap.

Collectively, the British consumer is in debt to something in the order of 7 BILLION pounds! That's hardly what I would call healthy... [/b][/quote]
I described the economy as healthy because it is. Consumer borrowing is a measure of confidence in the economy. You seem to see this debt as a bad thing. Don't worry, most of it is mine.

Publice sector borrowing is in fine health in fact I believe Mr Brown may have some reserves. He is I believe doing a fine job.

The Markets are happy and posting good results. Last time I looked the FTSE 100 was around 4100.

You may not be content with the UK's economic position, I am.

[Rat Faced]

I re-iterate. The question is irrelevant. A man of good conscience, acting in good faith, has no consequences to face. I believe the Prime Minister is such a man and that his actions were appropriate, given the situation.

Your right, we were getting off topic.

As to your quote...the accusations are that he lied to Parliament and the British people.............. KNOWINGLY LIED.


This is NOT acting in good faith, if true (I do bear in mind it is an ACCUSATION...by our security services that PROVIDED the "evidence")


He then took the country to war against the publics wishes.


We both appear to agree he has no concience

[J'Pol]

RF your points are well made.

However I do not believe that The PM lied to the people (incidentally I believe that lying requires to be knowingly. I do not think you can lie while thinking you are telling the truth).

I believe that his stated reasons for becoming involved were, to the best of his knowledge and based on the evidence available to him, the true reasons. If it transpires that the intelligence he received was incorrect (and that is far from being established) then the fault lies with those who supplied it to him.

That would then open up a whole new debate, did they believe what they said were they deliberately mis-leading the Premier etc.

For now, and until proven otherwise I am willing to accept his word. If alleged murderers and rapists are allowed the presumption of innocence I think the PM deserves the same.

[Rat Faced]

Thats why i have been careful to say "IF" and "ACCUSED".


OK I detest the man, and think he is a turncoat Tory....I wont vote for him in any way or form.


However you are correct; he is innocent of these until proven guilty.

I recall my terms of employment by these very same people...ie "A Civil Servant shall not only be honest, but above suspicion of dishonesty".

If I can be suspended if im "Suspected" of something "Criminal" (pending a full investigation), i think its only right that my boss is in the same position

After all, we are not talking about fiddling his trust fund (like last year) or getting head from a secretary (Mr Clintons favourite)....we are talking about the pre-meditated Killing of people. The US/UK armies may have been the "Gun", but it was Bush/Blaire that pointed it.

It needs to be discovered whether this pre-meditation was based on what he received, or whether he was "selective"...the people that GAVE him the information are saying he was "selective with the truth"....ALLEGEDLY.

This is politicspeak for "lies"


I think that you are "New Labour", and while I would never want an "Old Labour" government (god forbid)...these lot are too right wing for my liking...

Im not "Socialist" enough to take any of the other "Left of Centre" parties, which leaves the LibDems....who are shocked to find themselves on the left instead of centre...without changing any of their policies

[J'Pol]

For clarification.

My Father was a Joiner and my Mother a cleaner in an old folks home. They had 4 children (as do I) and along with my Grandmother all seven of us lived in a 3 bedroom mid terraced house in a small mining village.

All of my uncles, on my mothers side were coal miners. My Maternal Grandfather was a coal miner, my Paternal Grandfather was a Clay Miner. I never met either as they both died years before I was born. I am sure you can work out why.

My Maternal Granmother was widowed in her early thirties with 6 children to raise. One of which, my mother spent two years (11-13) in a convalescent home with tuberculosis. My Grandmother worked as a cleaner in addition to looking after her 6 children. All of whom left school at 14 to start work. I think the oldest boy left at 13. The boys went down the pits and worked at the face. That was the option, that was their life.

I, my friend, am Labour. If you wish I can show you where Kier Hardy was born and lived. I used to pass there on my way to work every day.

[Illuminati]

While it&#39;s great debating about the state of the Labour party, I see one critical flaw which are in both Rat & JPaul&#39;s sides of the argument.

In the 1997 general elections, Blair took pains to claim that he was leading the New Labour party - There are a lot of similarities in between this and the old Labour party (the main one being that New Labour evolved from the original Labour party). But, as I think has been clear this past year, New Labour is not necessarily/automatically the same as old Labour (the main case being the change in their managing the country - Maybe I&#39;m ignorant, but I don&#39;t think I know a war that a Labour PM started. I might be wrong about Chamberlain though - Not sure what party he was with to tell you the truth).

Now I&#39;m hoping that&#39;s helped to clear some things up, considering that I think Rat&#39;s talking about New Labour and JPaul Old Labour. If it did, can both guys reiterate their point? If it didn&#39;t, ignore this (but either way, I&#39;m staying out of the crossfire )

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by Illuminati@16 June 2003 - 18:56
but I don&#39;t think I know a war that a Labour PM started. I might be wrong about Chamberlain though - Not sure what party he was with to tell you the truth).

You think Neville Chamberlain started the second world war ?

[DanB]

Originally posted by clocker@4 June 2003 - 20:43
Surely Illuminati, you aren&#39;t advocating assassination as the method of choice for the angry?

Bush faces re-election in 2004. We&#39;ll see what happens.
Were he to be killed, any faults/sins/screwups would be glossed over and forgotten in the process of his canonization. And if you think America has acted rashly and without justification to date, just assassinate our leader. The response would be catastrophic and far in excess of anything you&#39;ve seen yet.

Bush&#39;s election in any place was a complete and utter farce&#33; he won on a recount where by his home state provided the winning vote&#33;&#33;&#33;



suspect or what?