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Thread: Undocumented immigration in border states

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skiz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by l33tpirata13 View Post
    Historical reference? Oh yeah, now you're calling my great-grandfather a liar? Oh no, you know you're right because you lived through it and you know everything, right? Cuz, he had reason to lie to me. Stop defending the use of that word!!! I don't care who you are. That word is exactly the same as the N word. Just like i can't say white derogatory terms. If you want to defend that, it's on you. I'm sure you can find more than a couple history books from the 30's and 40's that refer to African Americans as the "N" word. Are you going to quote them too?
    If you're unable to have grown-up discussions, you probably shouldn't post in this section.

    "Operation Wetback was a repatriation project of the United States Immigration and Naturalization Service to remove illegal Mexican immigrants ("wetbacks") from the Southwest."

    In this context, it does have a historical value. How can you not not see that?

    It has nothing to do with your grandfather or anyone else.

    Should we destroy all copies of 'Uncle Tom's Cabin' because it has the word "nigger" in it? Of course not.

    @boab - That was a good link to some good information. I'm waiting on J2's response to that as he's more in touch with the legal parameters I believe from then to now.
    How is what he posted in any way historically accurate? What are their sources?

  2. The Drawing Room   -   #102
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
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    Quote Originally Posted by l33tpirata13 View Post
    How is what he posted in any way historically accurate? What are their sources?
    Read this very carefully, you ^ and MBM:

    For purposes here, with specific regard to the dispute at hand, "wetbacks" and "braceros" aside?

    Leet puts his great-grandfather up against Bob's citation, and Bob wins.

    If Leet wants to question Bob or his citation, it is incumbent on Leet to begin by providing a counter.

    That is the way debate/discussion works.

    Are we to believe pigmentation is a free pass to the peremptory hissy-fit?

    This fucking guy wants to shoot his horse in the starting gate, and here we have another member egging him on, ffs.

    No offense intended, of course.
    Last edited by j2k4; 08-24-2010 at 11:33 PM.
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

  3. The Drawing Room   -   #103
    MagicNakor's Avatar On the Peripheral
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    How would a DMZ work within the United States, vis-ŕ-vis Federal/State powers/obligations/rights? Would it require a tacit agreement between border states, or can the Federal government "claim" the land?

    things are quiet until hitler decides he'd like to invade russia
    so, he does
    the russians are like "OMG WTF D00DZ, STOP TKING"
    and the germans are still like "omg ph34r n00bz"
    the russians fall back, all the way to moscow
    and then they all begin h4xing, which brings on the russian winter
    the germans are like "wtf, h4x"
    -- WW2 for the l33t

  4. The Drawing Room   -   #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagicNakor View Post
    How would a DMZ work within the United States, vis-ŕ-vis Federal/State powers/obligations/rights? Would it require a tacit agreement between border states, or can the Federal government "claim" the land?

    Congress is empowered to 'sieze' land for the protection of the States. Mass (global)immigration as seen today has got to stop. Too many immigrants want to change the law to 'their' laws. We've had cases in the U.K. of 'honour' killings, where the victim reneged on a 'contract marriage' was murdered, sometimes by their own family. I saw a member of TV audience saying, Why can't we have 'Sharia Law' for the area we live in?

    I'ts like Gerrymandering, only using people instead of borders.

    The tax payers of today are going to be the huddled masses of tomorrow.
    The best way to keep a secret:- Tell everyone not to tell anyone.

  5. The Drawing Room   -   #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by MBM View Post
    I won't be posting in this section anymore.
    I don't seem to remember you posting in this section before. If you are using this account to overcome a banning or disablement then I'm afraid there is a chance that you won't be posting in any section again. Pity. A debate is about many aspects of a 'problem'. If you can't debate and prove that your version is correct or accept that your version is wrong, then debating is not your forte. Bye.
    The best way to keep a secret:- Tell everyone not to tell anyone.

  6. The Drawing Room   -   #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by MBM View Post
    I'm not going to battle with mods deleting posts that they don't agree with. My "ban" is for 1 day- no big deal. However, skiz has shown his inability to moderate this topic fairly. His "Tejas, formerly Texas" as his location shows much"...

    If anyone wants to give me a perm ban for using this known dupe account, so be that, also...
    Mods have a difficult job. This is not the Lounge. If you stray off topic or become personal then that part or whole of your post will be deleted. A can't see Skiz doing anything untoward. In fact he does a very good job and very rarely has, or needs to interfere in this section.

    P.S. there you go contradicting yourself by posting again.
    The best way to keep a secret:- Tell everyone not to tell anyone.

  7. The Drawing Room   -   #107
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    Wow, so now MBM gets a ban because he makes some sense? According to J2d2, my great grandfather is a Wetback, and anyone that says it's "history" can call him that also. The sources cited for that "wiki" were completely one sided. The very people that the article states were called bigots, are the same ones they are citing. You consider that link as a credible source? Not ACLU though, right? Is it history or just an excuse to throw racist terms around without consequence? Putting things into perspective, J2d2 and others with his views live in secluded rural areas, where this form of thinking is rampant. New Mexico or western texas, doesn't represent the US by any means.

    Oh and if the mods were doing their jobs, which they are not, it wouldn't get personal. J2d2 seems to get as personal as he wants without any sort of consequence. Why is that? Will this post be deleted too?
    Last edited by l33tpirata13; 08-25-2010 at 03:43 PM.

  8. The Drawing Room   -   #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by l33tpirata13 View Post
    Wow, so now MBM gets a ban because he makes some sense? According to J2d2, my great grandfather is a Wetback, and anyone that says it's "history" can call him that also. The sources cited for that "wiki" were completely one sided. The very people that the article states were called bigots, are the same ones they are citing. You consider that link as a credible source? Not ACLU though, right? Is it history or just an excuse to throw racist terms around without consequence? Putting things into perspective, J2d2 and others with his views live in secluded rural areas, where this form of thinking is rampant. New Mexico or western texas, doesn't represent the US by any means.

    Oh and if the mods were doing their jobs, which they are not, it wouldn't get personal. J2d2 seems to get as personal as he wants without any sort of consequence. Why is that? Will this post be deleted too?
    Okay - back all that up, pal.

    Quote exactly where and how I called you or your Grandfather a "wetback".

    Also-

    Shoot MBM a PM and beg him to post in support of your accusations.

    Actually, it needn't be MBM - anybody will do.
    Last edited by j2k4; 08-25-2010 at 08:01 PM.
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

  9. The Drawing Room   -   #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by l33tpirata13 View Post
    How is what he posted in any way historically accurate? What are their sources?
    How about The Texas State Historical Association?

    There is a complete bibliography as well with plenty of reputable sources.

    Operation Wetback was a repatriation project of the United States Immigration and Naturalization Service to remove illegal Mexican immigrants ("wetbacks") from the Southwest. During the first decades of the twentieth century, the majority of migrant workers who crossed the border illegally did not have adequate protection against exploitation by American farmers. As a result of the Good Neighbor Policy, Mexico and the United States began negotiating an accord to protect the rights of Mexican agricultural workers. Continuing discussions and modifications of the agreement were so successful that the Congress chose to formalize the "temporary" program into the Bracero program, authorized by Public Law 78. In the early 1940s, while the program was being viewed as a success in both countries, Mexico excluded Texas from the labor-exchange program on the grounds of widespread violation of contracts, discrimination against migrant workers, and such violations of their civil rights as perfunctory arrests for petty causes. Oblivious to the Mexican charges, some grower organizations in Texas continued to hire illegal Mexican workers and violate such mandates of PL 78 as the requirement to provide workers transportation costs from and to Mexico, fair and lawful wages, housing, and health services. World War II and the postwar period exacerbated the Mexican exodus to the United States, as the demand for cheap agricultural laborers increased. Graft and corruption on both sides of the border enriched many Mexican officials as well as unethical "coyote" freelancers in the United States who promised contracts in Texas for the unsuspecting Bracero. Studies conducted over a period of several years indicate that the Bracero program increased the number of illegal aliens in Texas and the rest of the country. Because of the low wages paid to legal, contracted braceros, many of them skipped out on their contracts either to return home or to work elsewhere for better wages as wetbacks.

    Increasing grievances from various Mexican officials in the United States and Mexico prompted the Mexican government to rescind the bracero agreement and cease the export of Mexican workers. The United States Immigration Service, under pressure from various agricultural groups, retaliated against Mexico in 1951 by allowing thousands of illegals to cross the border, arresting them, and turning them over to the Texas Employment Commission, which delivered them to work for various grower groups in Texas and elsewhere. Over the long term, this action by the federal government, in violation of immigration laws and the agreement with Mexico, caused new problems for Texas. Between 1944 and 1954, "the decade of the wetback," the number of illegal aliens coming from Mexico increased by 6,000 percent. It is estimated that in 1954 before Operation Wetback got under way, more than a million workers had crossed the Rio Grande illegally. Cheap labor displaced native agricultural workers, and increased violation of labor laws and discrimination encouraged criminality, disease, and illiteracy. According to a study conducted in 1950 by the President's Commission on Migratory Labor in Texas, the Rio Grande valley cotton growers were paying approximately half of the wages paid elsewhere in Texas. In 1953 a McAllen newspaper clamored for justice in view of continuing criminal activities by wetbacks.

    The resulting Operation Wetback, a national reaction against illegal immigration, began in Texas in mid-July 1954. Headed by the commissioner of Immigration and Naturalization Service, Gen. Joseph May Swing, the United States Border Patrol aided by municipal, county, state, and federal authorities, as well as the military, began a quasimilitary operation of search and seizure of all illegal immigrants. Fanning out from the lower Rio Grande valley, Operation Wetback moved northward. Illegal aliens were repatriated initially through Presidio because the Mexican city across the border, Ojinaga, had rail connections to the interior of Mexico by which workers could be quickly moved on to Durango. A major concern of the operation was to discourage reentry by moving the workers far into the interior. Others were to be sent through El Paso. On July 15, the first day of the operation, 4,800 aliens were apprehended. Thereafter the daily totals dwindled to an average of about 1,100 a day. The forces used by the government were actually relatively small, perhaps no more than 700 men, but were exaggerated by border patrol officials who hoped to scare illegal workers into flight back to Mexico. Valley newspapers also exaggerated the size of the government forces for their own purposes: generally unfavorable editorials attacked the Border Patrol as an invading army seeking to deprive Valley farmers of their inexpensive labor force. While the numbers of deportees remained relatively high, the illegals were transported across the border on trucks and buses. As the pace of the operation slowed, deportation by sea began on the Emancipation, which ferried wetbacks from Port Isabel, Texas, to Veracruz, and on other ships. Ships were a preferred mode of transport because they carried the illegal workers farther away from the border than did buses, trucks, or trains. The boat lift continued until the drowning of seven deportees who jumped ship from the Mercurio provoked a mutiny and led to a public outcry against the practice in Mexico. Other aliens, particularly those apprehended in the Midwest states, were flown to Brownsville and sent into Mexico from there. The operation trailed off in the fall of 1954 as INS funding began to run out.

    It is difficult to estimate the number of illegal aliens forced to leave by the operation. The INS claimed as many as 1,300,000, though the number officially apprehended did not come anywhere near this total. The INS estimate rested on the claim that most aliens, fearing apprehension by the government, had voluntarily repatriated themselves before and during the operation. The San Antonio district, which included all of Texas outside of El Paso and the Trans-Pecos, had officially apprehended slightly more than 80,000 aliens, and local INS officials claimed that an additional 500,000 to 700,000 had fled to Mexico before the campaign began. Many commentators have considered these figure to be exaggerated. Various groups opposed any form of temporary labor in the United States. The American G.I. Forum, for instance, by and large had little or no sympathy for the man who crossed the border illegally. Apparently the Texas State Federation of Labor supported the G.I. Forum's position. Eventually the two organizations coproduced a study entitled What Price Wetbacks?, which concluded that illegal aliens in United States agriculture damaged the health of the American people, that illegals displaced American workers, that they harmed the retailers of McAllen, and that the open-border policy of the American government posed a threat to the security of the United States. Critics of Operation Wetback considered it xenophobic and heartless.

    BIBLIOGRAPHY: Carl Allsup, The American G.I. Forum: Origins and Evolution (University of Texas Center for Mexican American Studies Monograph 6, Austin, 1982). Arnoldo De León, Mexican Americans in Texas: A Brief History (Arlington Heights, Illinois: Harlan Davidson, 1993). Juan Ramon Garcia, Operation Wetback: The Mass Deportation of Mexican Undocumented Workers in 1954 (Westport, Connecticut: Greenwood Press, 1980). Eleanor M. Hadley, "A Critical Analysis of the Wetback Problem," Law and Contemporary Problems 21 (Spring 1956). Saturday Evening Post, July 27, 1946. Julian Samora, Los Mojados: The Wetback Story (Notre Dame: University of Notre Dame Press, 1971).
    Last edited by Skiz; 08-25-2010 at 08:13 PM. Reason: fixed tags


    yo

  10. The Drawing Room   -   #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by l33tpirata13 View Post
    Wow, so now MBM gets a ban because he makes some sense? According to J2d2, my great grandfather is a Wetback, and anyone that says it's "history" can call him that also. The sources cited for that "wiki" were completely one sided. The very people that the article states were called bigots, are the same ones they are citing. You consider that link as a credible source? Not ACLU though, right? Is it history or just an excuse to throw racist terms around without consequence? Putting things into perspective, J2d2 and others with his views live in secluded rural areas, where this form of thinking is rampant. New Mexico or western texas, doesn't represent the US by any means.

    Oh and if the mods were doing their jobs, which they are not, it wouldn't get personal. J2d2 seems to get as personal as he wants without any sort of consequence. Why is that? Will this post be deleted too?
    Okay - back all that up, pal.

    Quote exactly where and how I called you or your Grandfather a "wetback".

    Also-

    Shoot MBM a PM and beg him to post in support of your accusations.

    Actually, it needn't be MBM - anybody will do.
    Back what up? What is there to dispute? You want to pretend like that bit of "history" is valid enough to call my family a derogatory term. It's that simple. You want to defend a site that makes wiki look like a paysite simply because it calls Braceros, Wetbacks. I don't have anything to prove, you've done enough.

    Also-
    Be realistic. You do realize you live in NM, right? These types of ideas are rampant in those parts. Talk of militarizing the border is nothing more than fantasy. It will never happen. EVER. So why even discuss it? Saying that you're out of touch is an understatement. That's just the facts, sorry.

    Who backs YOU up? Someone that doesn't just delete posts to YOUR liking please.
    Last edited by l33tpirata13; 08-25-2010 at 08:24 PM.

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