Is Bush On His Way Out?

[j2k4]

Originally posted by echidna+17 November 2003 - 09:31--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (echidna @ 17 November 2003 - 09:31)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by j2k4@18 November 2003 - 00:21
<!--QuoteBegin-echidna

@17 November 2003 - 09:12

@j2k4 :: if you keep splitting hairs, you will end up cutting your fingers

And if you keep painting with such a broad brush, your Picasso-like talents will never garner critical notice.

i&#39;d count that as critique

what&#39;s with the milk and cookies i&#39;ve read that 60% of americans are overweight and up to 20% obese already

the british cops have managed without guns for centuries, and they had so much crime that they started australia.
so i really don&#39;t see the capacity for violent force equating with the level of law and order, &#39;cause england is not known for it&#39;s anarchist lawlessness [/b][/quote]
Okay-

Let&#39;s start from this:

What justifies violence on the part of protesters/demonstrators?

[echidna]

what is at stake

[j2k4]

Take your WTO incident in Seattle, for example.

Why does it matter, anyway?

People will riot over free hotdogs if TV cameras are present.

[echidna]

your proud nation was founded from a riot
oops i mean revolution, asn&#39;t it?

there were no TV cameras then
just a great deal a stake

try doing the sums on conducting business with supply costs for clean air and water
it makes the oil price look very insignificant, compared to the wilderness we don&#39;t cout in our accounts

what&#39;s at stake is in part why soros is putting up so much cash aswell

empithise with what has happened to argentinians in the last five years and you might start to understand

or you could act like the turkey in charge and think that people hate you because your free

[j2k4]

Originally posted by echidna@17 November 2003 - 09:51
your proud nation was founded from a riot
oops i mean revolution, asn&#39;t it?

there were no TV cameras then
just a great deal a stake

try doing the sums on conducting business with supply costs for clean air and water
it makes the oil price look very insignificant, compared to the wilderness we don&#39;t cout in our accounts

what&#39;s at stake is in part why soros is putting up so much cash aswell

empithise with what has happened to argentinians in the last five years and you might start to understand

or you could act like the turkey in charge and think that people hate you because your free

That was an exercise in obfuscation.

Anent-Seattle?


Edit: And leave Soros out of this-he&#39;s an idiot, and neither a member of this board nor a participant in this thread.

[j2k4]

I can&#39;t help but wonder how far I would (or could, or should) get if, by using your logic, I disrupted societal intercourse or punched a cop or something and justified it by claiming the status of a "revolutionary" while regaling my opponents with stories of "the bad old days" of state religious oppression and unfair taxes?

On second thought, it sounds like fun&#33;

"Officer-Shall we dance?"

[echidna]

Originally posted by j2k4+18 November 2003 - 00:56--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4 &#064; 18 November 2003 - 00:56)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-echidna@17 November 2003 - 09:51
your proud nation was founded from a riot
oops i mean revolution, asn&#39;t it?

there were no TV cameras then
just a great deal a stake

try doing the sums on conducting business with supply costs for clean air and water
it makes the oil price look very insignificant, compared to the wilderness we don&#39;t cout in our accounts

what&#39;s at stake is in part why soros is putting up so much cash aswell

empithise with what has happened to argentinians in the last five years and you might start to understand

or you could act like the turkey in charge and think that people hate you because your free

That was an exercise in obfuscation.

Anent-Seattle?


Edit: And leave Soros out of this-he&#39;s an idiot, and neither a member of this board nor a participant in this thread.[/b][/quote]

1. what is &#39;Anent-Seattle?&#39;?
2. Soros as it happens is the main protagonist of the first post of this thread, regardless of your opinion of him

i&#39;m not the one being obscure
it&#39;s time for bed though, so i&#39;ll continue this with you later j2k4, goodnight.
may your morrows find you all well

[j2k4]

Originally posted by echidna@17 November 2003 - 10:13
[*]what is &#39;Anent-Seattle?&#39;?[*]Soros as it happens is the main protagonist of the first post of this thread, regardless of your opinion of him[/LIST]
i&#39;m not the one being obscure
it&#39;s time for bed though, so i&#39;ll continue this with you later j2k4, goodnight.
may your morrows find you all well

What of (or "as to", or "regarding") Seattle, then? You brought it up.

Soros is past; we have hijacked this thread (or hadn&#39;t you noticed? ).

Also: I said "obfuscate", not obscure.

Good night, E.

[Rat Faced]

Whether either of you are "Right" or "Wrong" is irrelevant to the fact that; although banned by international treaties chemical weapons like tear gas, are routinely used by law enforcement for crowd dispersal...all over the world.

The Gas that the Russians used, that killed 116 people during a hostage situation not so long ago (a fentanyl derivative), was recommended for use by the US Police and Military for Crowd Control; and if that Russian miscalculation hadnt been such bad PR it would be in use now.

There are numerous Deaths on record from the use of Tear Gas, Pepper Sprays and CS Gas (both Directly and Indirectly caused by the chemicals)...all Incapacitating Agents. To therefore describe them as "Non Lethal" is incorrect, and the term should be "Less Lethal"...this is probably why the Military stick by the term "Incapacitating", as this covers all bases without mentioning "Lethal" at all.

However, maybe they are still thinking about it...

"I&#39;m sure US Special Operations command and people dealing with hostage rescues are going to be very interested by the Moscow case and US law enforcement agencies will need to have a very convincing answer as to why they don&#39;t have those capabilities next time there is a hostage situation in the US," Pike pointed out.

Source

Researchers at Pennsylvania State University suggested two years ago that the U.S. military explore using fentanyl and similar drugs to subdue angry crowds. Officials said the researchers recommended that the drug be added to tear gas or pepper spray.

Based on reports from doctors who visited American hostages who were recovering in Moscow hospitals, U.S. officials believe that the gas was an opiate - a drug related to morphine and heroin, Vershbow said. Other U.S. officials identified it as fentanyl, an opiate commonly used in anesthesia and to relieve severe pain.

Fentanyl is a fast-acting narcotic that in large doses can shut down breathing and cause death from lack of oxygen. It is 100 times more potent than morphine.

Source

[j2k4]

Rat-

That&#39;s all well and good, but I was responding to Echidna&#39;s charge such weapons/deterrents are used in spontaneous orgies of oppression by U.S. law enforcement.

Such is not the case; he knows it, and so should you.

I will not either have you lay the use of tear-gas/pepper spray by U.S. law-enforcement side-by-side with what happened in Russia.

Whether recommended by U.S. law enforcement or not, the Russians forgot to read the label that says. "Not for indoor use".

Please do not try to cover all such incidents with the same rhetorical "blanket",

and stop playing this game of moral equivalence.