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Thread: Attention, Lurkers...

  1. #31
    manker's Avatar effendi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rat Faced
    @manker

    No i do mean it.

    What good is being able to sack the Government, if you lose the ability immediatly after using that power?

    If they were allowed to actually use the power, then Thatcher wouldnt have caused as much crap as she did. In addition, Blaire wouldnt have been able to use the Royal Prorogative to take us to war etc..

    At the moment, the "Powers" of the Royals are excercised by the PM... I do not like so much power ie: The Prorogatives and the Government, in one persons hands.

    By giving the Royal stuff back to the Royals, Government becomes more accountable.
    I do understand that you don't like Blair having so much power but surely it is better in the hands of an elected politician rather than an unelected pensioner.

    How would the Queen be able to decide when it's appropriate to use the Royal Prerogative. Would she have an unelected quango of advisors, call a referendum or something else. I know that it wouldn't be the result of a Windsor family conflab.

    I am genuinely interested in this as I know basically nothing about it -- I don't think the thought had ever crossed my mind before.
    I plan on beating him to death with his kids. I'll use them as a bludgeon on his face. -

    --Good for them if they survive.

  2. The Drawing Room   -   #32
    Rat Faced's Avatar Broken
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    Hmm, maybe im expressing myself incorrectly...

    The Royals are brought up from birth and educated to a high standard and should, in theory have an extremly high sense of Nobless Oblige (spelling?)...

    Those that rise to the top in politics, irrespective of party, have only proven that they are better backstabbing bastards than the next man...

    Personally, id rather trust those that were brought up from birth that they should look after their subjects and nation, than those that wish to tickle their own ego trip for power and lining their pockets.

    No garantee that they would be right; but then there never is....

    AND.. they are merely the balance to the Government, or should be.

    They dont make/enforce laws, however should have and use the power to force an election, irrespective of the governments wishes. THIS is the most important part... the power to sack a Government that gets too big for its boots (eg Thatcher and Blaire)

    An It Harm None, Do What You Will

  3. The Drawing Room   -   #33
    manker's Avatar effendi
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    I thought the Noblesse Oblige was a term only used these days in satire.

    I understand your viewpoint a little better now but I heartily disagree. I think perhaps my view of major politicians isn't as jaded as your's and that you're probably rather more cynical and distrustful of them than I am.

    I can't begin to comprehend the problems of entrusting one individual with the responsibility of sacking the Government. It's just ... incomprehensible.
    I plan on beating him to death with his kids. I'll use them as a bludgeon on his face. -

    --Good for them if they survive.

  4. The Drawing Room   -   #34
    Rat Faced's Avatar Broken
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    There arent many Civil Servants (or indeed Public Servants) that could put their hand on their heart and say that their Minister wasnt on the fiddle one way or another....

    Cynical, yes...

    However, I can deal with a dishonest politician, if he stays bought... these days they dont even have the honour to do that

    An Honest Politician is not unknown... they will never be a power though.

    An It Harm None, Do What You Will

  5. The Drawing Room   -   #35
    Politicians don't have to stab each other in the back. That's what campaigns and advisors are for.
    As for royalty being better suited for governing: Bullshit (sorry, but I sometimes like to be blunt). Politics is a skill that is difficult to develop, much like military strategy, which few people actually understand. Representative governments have competition between people and parties, thus allowing voters to pick the person whom they think is best able to fulfill their term. The oscillation between parties holding the high offices is natural to representative governments; as one party executes its goals, the problems that it claimed to fix will vanish, while the problems that the other side brings up will be more obvious and seem more imminent. Thus, the other party will win the next election, and the cycle will continue.

    With life-long appointments, there are quite a few problems. First, you could end up with a drooling idiot, literally, as Spain realized when its empire was crumbling. Second, there is no check-and-balance system, so the monarch could really do whatever they want. Third, the monarch will act in their self-interest, and the population of the country will get screwed over (as has happened when monarchs are in power). There are countless more problems, but I haven't considered the subject enough to notice them. "tickle their own ego trip for power and lining their pockets" is exactly what a monarch will do, as history has proven.

    You probably doubt that a monarch can take control of a nation if it only has the power to force elections. Assure you, a monarch can. What would happen if the monarch forced elections each and every month? Such actions would effectively sack the government, as no citizens would know who really is in power, and citizens will not follow the orders of someone whom they don't think is in power. The only person with a consistent grasp on power would be the monarch. Thus, the citizens would turn to the monarch for stability, either trading the monarch something the king/queen wants in exchange for not holding countless elections, or giving the monarch enough power so that they don't need to hold countless elections (because the monarch would have more power than Parliament, and thus is free to do whatever he/she wants, given a bit of time). On the other hand, the population might start a revolution an kill the monarch, but it's unlikely that they would be able to reform parliament, because there is no authority to tell winners of the earlier elections that they will not have a seat in the new parliament, and no authority to administrate a new election for a longer-lasting parliament.

    The above is an extreme circumstance. Another, more likely, case may be that the monarch will call new elections whenever a certain party that the monarch dislikes has bad poll numbers, and the monarch can therefore weaken the party. So, all the political parties would work to receive the monarch's favor, in order to not lose power themselves. After some time, the power that the monarch slowly consumes would allow them more control over government, and thus more control over parliament. And, with enough time and a clever, skillful monarch, parliament will be more of a puppet of the monarch than it is a representative body.

    Once you give someone a bit of power over others, that power can grow. There is no education system that can convince anyone not to seek more power, not to line their own pockets, or not ignore their subjects to save their own skin. Sorry, a part of humanity cannot be educated away. Education isn't the panacea to all evil, that was a belief in the years leading up to WWI (along with the popular opinion always being right, always), and it failed miserably.
    Last edited by Maxtor2; 01-08-2005 at 05:19 AM.

  6. The Drawing Room   -   #36
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    yup i spend lots of time in here reading posts that are fuckin novels, ie. ^^

    swayed? no, its just damn good reading. Its mildy entertaining, very informative and intellegent, and in most cases a good english lesson, which i no doubt need
    Last edited by Monkster; 01-08-2005 at 05:49 AM.

  7. The Drawing Room   -   #37
    TheDave's Avatar n00b
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    i read the first paragraph. :gheyeyerollingsmiley:

    sorry to go off topic...

    the other day me and my dad were talking about americans blind faith in george bush and their unwillingness to question him...

    his theory is george bush=head of state so to americans it's like speaking ill of our queen to question him, unpatriotic if you will.

    so having a head of state without power seems to be a very good thing for democracy as it gives the people a clear conscience to question governing powers.

    i've never had the mind of an american so i don't know how true it is, but it could explain a few things

  8. The Drawing Room   -   #38
    Rat Faced's Avatar Broken
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    I am indeed, her Subject.

    I also said that they should in theory have a high sense of Nobless Oblige... what has that got to do with intelligence?

    I'd rather follow someone thick that is at least trying to act in my countries best interest, than someone intelligent acting in their own. This doesnt mean that the Royals dont.. just look at Charles

    .... however they, in my opinion, are much more likely to.
    Last edited by Rat Faced; 01-08-2005 at 02:10 PM.

    An It Harm None, Do What You Will

  9. The Drawing Room   -   #39
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxtor2
    Politicians don't have to stab each other in the back. That's what campaigns and advisors are for.
    As for royalty being better suited for governing: Bullshit (sorry, but I sometimes like to be blunt). Politics is a skill that is difficult to develop, much like military strategy, which few people actually understand. Representative governments have competition between people and parties, thus allowing voters to pick the person whom they think is best able to fulfill their term. The oscillation between parties holding the high offices is natural to representative governments; as one party executes its goals, the problems that it claimed to fix will vanish, while the problems that the other side brings up will be more obvious and seem more imminent. Thus, the other party will win the next election, and the cycle will continue.

    With life-long appointments, there are quite a few problems. First, you could end up with a drooling idiot, literally, as Spain realized when its empire was crumbling. Second, there is no check-and-balance system, so the monarch could really do whatever they want. Third, the monarch will act in their self-interest, and the population of the country will get screwed over (as has happened when monarchs are in power). There are countless more problems, but I haven't considered the subject enough to notice them. "tickle their own ego trip for power and lining their pockets" is exactly what a monarch will do, as history has proven.

    You probably doubt that a monarch can take control of a nation if it only has the power to force elections. Assure you, a monarch can. What would happen if the monarch forced elections each and every month? Such actions would effectively sack the government, as no citizens would know who really is in power, and citizens will not follow the orders of someone whom they don't think is in power. The only person with a consistent grasp on power would be the monarch. Thus, the citizens would turn to the monarch for stability, either trading the monarch something the king/queen wants in exchange for not holding countless elections, or giving the monarch enough power so that they don't need to hold countless elections (because the monarch would have more power than Parliament, and thus is free to do whatever he/she wants, given a bit of time). On the other hand, the population might start a revolution an kill the monarch, but it's unlikely that they would be able to reform parliament, because there is no authority to tell winners of the earlier elections that they will not have a seat in the new parliament, and no authority to administrate a new election for a longer-lasting parliament.

    The above is an extreme circumstance. Another, more likely, case may be that the monarch will call new elections whenever a certain party that the monarch dislikes has bad poll numbers, and the monarch can therefore weaken the party. So, all the political parties would work to receive the monarch's favor, in order to not lose power themselves. After some time, the power that the monarch slowly consumes would allow them more control over government, and thus more control over parliament. And, with enough time and a clever, skillful monarch, parliament will be more of a puppet of the monarch than it is a representative body.

    Once you give someone a bit of power over others, that power can grow. There is no education system that can convince anyone not to seek more power, not to line their own pockets, or not ignore their subjects to save their own skin. Sorry, a part of humanity cannot be educated away. Education isn't the panacea to all evil, that was a belief in the years leading up to WWI (along with the popular opinion always being right, always), and it failed miserably.
    Yes, quite true and all that, but you've only just scratched the surface.

    If actual debate ever breaks out in here, you can be on my team (if you'll have me).
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

  10. The Drawing Room   -   #40
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDave
    ithe other day me and my dad were talking about americans blind faith in george bush and their unwillingness to question him...

    his theory is george bush=head of state so to americans it's like speaking ill of our queen to question him, unpatriotic if you will.
    That's not far from the mark.

    For those who agree that the basis of (insert relevant Presidential action here) is correct, there is no real recourse but to support one's president; carping is indeed allowed, but kept within limits and is informal in nature.

    For these people, to publically criticize a government cause, action or policy is to weaken the president, the action, and also such resolve as exists to accomplish the stated goal.

    The blindness you speak of also exists, Dave, but mostly in those who evince no political loyalty and hence do not vote as a result of their apathy.

    The rest of us are merely misguided.
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

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