Two Things

[tracydani]

Well I should have started off by saying that I support what is happening and have from the beginning. Just not how it is being done(without anywhere near a majority of approval from the rest of the world).

I also think that the Iraqi people will(if they don't already) support and thank the coalition for what has been done for them.

I guess what I am really wondering about is how many of the smiling faces we are seeing and have been seeing are because they really think we are doing them a favor and not just taking them from a horrible situation(but one they have for the most part lived their whole lives with and know any better) and putting them into another that for them may not be better but only different? (I don't mean that giving them freedom isn't better for them, just that how many of them really understand what the possiblities are and support that? and how many are afraid that what we bring is an end to their culture?)

I think that to say the smile can't be faked is wrong though. And to say that Iraqi's tearing posters and tearing down a statue means they support it either.
How many of these people do you think have the feeling that the way they react will decide whether they live or die? I mean after all, that is the way it has been for many years. Do you really think their reactions are based on their loyalty(or lack of) to their leader? I have been wondering if they are reacting favoribly to our coming more out of happiness, or just resignation to the fact that what they may or may not want is of no concern, but they will have to live with the result either way.

If they thought that Saddam was going to win don't you think their reactions would be completely different? I do.

Again, I completely support the fact that this needed to be done. This post is not about whether this is right or wrong, just about how the Iraqi people may see it.


For the second part.
From the very beginning I have thought that Saddam and the coalition are fighting different wars.
We have said that we are stepping in to remove a horrible dictator and a danger to the world. I agree with that and support it.
I also belive that Saddam does not care for his people in any way other then that he has what he has at their expense.
Because of this, I tend to think that the war Saddam has been fighting is more of one to try and discredit America and hopefully bring it down in the eyes of the world. He must have known that his country would not stand a chance against a coalition led with the strenght of the American military behind it. He has had a long time to think about this, and may feel that when the time comes, he can't stop being removed but will do his best to inflict as much damage as he can anyway.

What I am really worried about, and have been from the beginning, is will this kind of tactic work?
If America had waited for approval or solid evidence, we wouldn't have to worry about this. Now I think we do.
And what if we do find weapons at this late a date? Will this help us? Or will the rest of the world just assume that it has all been planted. I personaly would not put it past our government. It seems we have done this type of thing before anyway.
Will this just help to enforce mistrust in America?

I am worried that the lives lost in the war are gonna be nothing in comparison to what will happen as a result of the way we went about beginning this war.

[ne1GotZardoz]

Originally posted by zhelynd+10 April 2003 - 00:17--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (zhelynd @ 10 April 2003 - 00:17)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -ne1GotZardoz@10 April 2003 - 00:28
<!--QuoteBegin--tracydani

@9 April 2003 - 16:36
I am by no means one of the deeper thinkers on this board. Nor am I as well informed as some.

But I have been wondering these last few weeks. People have been refering to many Iraqi&#39;s smiling as the coalition forces come to them. They have used this as further proof that what we are doing is right and that the population there is eager to welcome us in thanks for freeing them.

But I have been wondering to myself. How would I react to an invading force that has already attacked us in the past and is so obviously more powerfull then my own country? I mean, by experiance, I know that they are gonna win in the end and I have nothing to gain but my possible death for interfearing.
Would I react in anger or would I be smiling my best knowing that these people who are surrounding me with tanks and guns are gonna be deciding my future for me?


The other thing I have been thinking about is this. Will Saddam win this fight against America?
I know he will most likely die at the end of this(and may already be dead), but will he win in the end?

So far, all the weapons of mass destruction we have accused him of having as an excuse to attack, have not been found. Just as Saddam said.
Will this end with America losing more in the end then a war with Iraq? Will people overlook the fact that the reason we went to war wasn&#39;t realized in the end? Or will everyone really begin to be anti American giving Saddam the final victory?

Just curious what others think on this

I don&#39;t know, Tracy...When we invaded Iraq,

who defended the Iraqi citizens?

Who attacked the Iraqi citizens?

I think when you look at it in that respect, there is really no question what the reality was here.

Speaking of such nobel pursuit, when are we gonna see some US invovlement in Congo where 1000 innocent people were massacured....
my guess would be the day they found 200 trillion tonnes of oil under Congolian soil. [/b][/quote]
I&#39;m sorry...When you clean your house, do you clean the whole house all at once?
Or do you set priorities?

Oh, I&#39;m sorry.

Maybe you can afford 1000 cleaning ladies, all waiting for you to blow a whistle so they can start cleaning at them same time.

Maybe you prefer not to clean your house at all.

I mean, after all, it&#39;s not fair to clean the dishes if the bathroom is dirty.

And you can&#39;t clean the bathroom if the livingroom needs vaccuumed.


My appologies to you sir.

[ne1GotZardoz]

Originally posted by tracydani@10 April 2003 - 04:04
What I am really worried about, and have been from the beginning, is will this kind of tactic work?
If America had waited for approval or solid evidence, we wouldn&#39;t have to worry about this. Now I think we do.
And what if we do find weapons at this late a date? Will this help us? Or will the rest of the world just assume that it has all been planted. I personaly would not put it past our government. It seems we have done this type of thing before anyway.
Will this just help to enforce mistrust in America?

I am worried that the lives lost in the war are gonna be nothing in comparison to what will happen as a result of the way we went about beginning this war.

That was a concern of mine too at the onset and through most of the war.

I was concerned because I didn&#39;t think we should be going to war without UN backing, even if Chiraq was an ass about it.

As the war progressed, and I began to see how the Iraqi military was treating the people it was suppose to protect, I realized that a regime that trained its people with so little regard had to fall.

Then my concern became the hope that we find WMD because if we didn&#39;t, how would we justify our actions.

But then, one night in the war, The Fedayeen stood children between it and the US soldiers and began shooting at our soldiers, knowing they would shoot back even though they could not see clearly what they were shooting at.

The next morning our soldiers were in tears when they realized who they had killed.

I know the Fedayeen that were responsible for the setup, never gave it a second thought, except to be happy that our men fell for it.

At that point, I no longer cared whether we found WMD.

And I don&#39;t really care what the rest of the world thinks about it except that it would be nice for them to stop dredging up our past and deal with the information at hand.

They think its about oil.

Chiraq had a pretty good oil deal going with Saddam on the side. Despite the UN sanctions against it.

The U. S. could have.

We didn&#39;t.

If it was only about oil...If we really didn&#39;t care about the people...Well...The Saudi&#39;s have alot more oil.

I don&#39;t know. It just seems Chiraq was upset about losing his bedfellow.

If we get bad press we&#39;ll survive.


Peace

[ne1GotZardoz]

Originally posted by Z@9 April 2003 - 23:27
look. i know the iraqis have been oppressed, murdered, and such by saddam, and yes, lots are happy that he is now gone (most). all i was saying was that there are still those who hate the US and wouldnt change that forever. the only thing u see on the news is people praising the US. obviously. it is our news for hells sake.

ok, now how can u say we took careful not to kill civilians? we obviously didnt kill them on purpose, but over 1000 were killed. and thats the US&#39;s count&#33; the iraqi army was not defending its citizens, and nor were they trying to. saddam obviously doesnt care about them. his army doesnt either. he does have loyals you know (soldiers in baghdad). and the battle in baghdad went much quicker than i thought it would. good.

of course the iraqi citizens are happy to see the regime fall, but how many people had to die to get it? yes, many would have died anyways under saddam, but think about everybody, not just the people they show on the news.

of course everyone wants to say that the only reason this was done was to liberate iraq, but do u really think bush cares about the iraqi citizens? seriously? i think this was good, but too many people died, and not everyone is happy that it happened.

If you wanted the perfect ending, where the whole world stands up a cheers sincerly for the good ole USA, that was never gonna happen.

No matter what you do, someone will hate you for it.

You can&#39;t satisfy everyone, dude.

You gotta do whats right for you.

This was right for the US to do.

As for the over a thousand civilians killed, Well, we knew there would be casualties.

If the Iraqi army had not used its own people as sheilds, we could have kept the cassualties much lower.

Its a shame that Saddam and his army did not feel any obligation to protect civilian lives.

Its a shame we had to take extra measures in that area.

But it did happen, and most Iraqi&#39;s know why it happened.

The few that don&#39;t...Maybe they never will know.

Or maybe they just don&#39;t want to, because like Tracy says,

(but one they have for the most part lived their whole lives with and know any better) and putting them into another that for them may not be better but only different? (I don&#39;t mean that giving them freedom isn&#39;t better for them, just that how many of them really understand what the possiblities are and support that? and how many are afraid that what we bring is an end to their culture?)

[chloe_cc2002]

QUOTE (ne1GotZardoz @ 9 April 2003 - 21:57)
QUOTE (Z @ 9 April 2003 - 19:32)
you have to remember that not all iraqis are happy. what about the ones who lost their families? or the ones who just dont like being invaded? many iraqis are not happy. this will both increase and decrease the popularity of the united states in iraq.&nbsp;

Based on what traspired during this war, and on what several Iraqi&#39;s said about the regime in an interview the day before the war started, These people were oppressed, tortured and murdered before we came in.
But there was no hope then.
Maybe you&#39;ve been reading different history books, but what I&#39;ve been reading about that culture in texts dating back to the middle ages and Marco Polo, is that the ruling class is barbaric having no regard for it&#39;s citizens.
Most of the rest of the world has been moving beyond that legacy.
Even Russia has joined the rest of the world in our quest for equal treatment of all mankind.
Except for a few countries in the Middle East.
I have seen nothing from this war to convince me that assessment is not still true.

I have seen much though to convince me that it is still true.

I&#39;m still waiting to hear Iraqis say they are unhappy with these events.
I haven&#39;t yet.

We took great care to cause as few civilian cassualties as possible.
The Iraqi Army, the people who should have been fighting to protect the civilians, caused as many cassualties as they could.
Or stood the civs up between them and our troops in the dead of night while they took pot shots at our men.

You think the citizens of Iraq are sorry to see the regime fall?

The Iraqi citizens have something now that they did not have before this war.

Hope.&nbsp;

look. i know the iraqis have been oppressed, murdered, and such by saddam, and yes, lots are happy that he is now gone (most). all i was saying was that there are still those who hate the US and wouldnt change that forever. the only thing u see on the news is people praising the US. obviously. it is our news for hells sake.

ok, now how can u say we took careful not to kill civilians? we obviously didnt kill them on purpose, but over 1000 were killed. and thats the US&#39;s count&#33; the iraqi army was not defending its citizens, and nor were they trying to. saddam obviously doesnt care about them. his army doesnt either. he does have loyals you know (soldiers in baghdad). and the battle in baghdad went much quicker than i thought it would. good.

of course the iraqi citizens are happy to see the regime fall, but how many people had to die to get it? yes, many would have died anyways under saddam, but think about everybody, not just the people they show on the news.

of course everyone wants to say that the only reason this was done was to liberate iraq, but do u really think bush cares about the iraqi citizens? seriously? i think this was good, but too many people died, and not everyone is happy that it happened.
QUOTE (ne1GotZardoz @ 9 April 2003 - 21:57)
QUOTE (Z @ 9 April 2003 - 19:32)
you have to remember that not all iraqis are happy. what about the ones who lost their families? or the ones who just dont like being invaded? many iraqis are not happy. this will both increase and decrease the popularity of the united states in iraq.&nbsp;

Based on what traspired during this war, and on what several Iraqi&#39;s said about the regime in an interview the day before the war started, These people were oppressed, tortured and murdered before we came in.
But there was no hope then.
Maybe you&#39;ve been reading different history books, but what I&#39;ve been reading about that culture in texts dating back to the middle ages and Marco Polo, is that the ruling class is barbaric having no regard for it&#39;s citizens.
Most of the rest of the world has been moving beyond that legacy.
Even Russia has joined the rest of the world in our quest for equal treatment of all mankind.
Except for a few countries in the Middle East.
I have seen nothing from this war to convince me that assessment is not still true.

I have seen much though to convince me that it is still true.

I&#39;m still waiting to hear Iraqis say they are unhappy with these events.
I haven&#39;t yet.

We took great care to cause as few civilian cassualties as possible.
The Iraqi Army, the people who should have been fighting to protect the civilians, caused as many cassualties as they could.
Or stood the civs up between them and our troops in the dead of night while they took pot shots at our men.

You think the citizens of Iraq are sorry to see the regime fall?

The Iraqi citizens have something now that they did not have before this war.

Hope.&nbsp;

look. i know the iraqis have been oppressed, murdered, and such by saddam, and yes, lots are happy that he is now gone (most). all i was saying was that there are still those who hate the US and wouldnt change that forever. the only thing u see on the news is people praising the US. obviously. it is our news for hells sake.

ok, now how can u say we took careful not to kill civilians? we obviously didnt kill them on purpose, but over 1000 were killed. and thats the US&#39;s count&#33; the iraqi army was not defending its citizens, and nor were they trying to. saddam obviously doesnt care about them. his army doesnt either. he does have loyals you know (soldiers in baghdad). and the battle in baghdad went much quicker than i thought it would. good.

of course the iraqi citizens are happy to see the regime fall, but how many people had to die to get it? yes, many would have died anyways under saddam, but think about everybody, not just the people they show on the news.

of course everyone wants to say that the only reason this was done was to liberate iraq, but do u really think bush cares about the iraqi citizens? seriously? i think this was good, but too many people died, and not everyone is happy that it happened.

Apologise if I messed up the quotes a little however I thought they all raised very important issues. To Zhelani, I agree wholeheartedly about the whole pretext for the war being flawed. The US was disingenuous to say the least and they are still looking for the so called smoking gun....WMD. They previously showed they were willing to &#39;find&#39; this evidence, or a basis for a belief that they would, and we saw how they produced evidence to the UN that raised suspicions in my mind as to their true motives.

When will Bush liberate those who are oppressed in the Congo??? When will he save the rest of the world. Who will receive priority??

From what I have seen of those countries bordering Iraq there is some suggestion that the Egyptians believe that it is mostly Kurdish who are showing jubilation. There are other Arab countries who have voiced their opinions, and we wil no doubt not hear their sentiments. At the moment, all we are hearing is &#39;vindication&#39;.

As clicheist as it seems &#39;truth&#39; is the first casualty of war. Of those Iraqis that wanted Saddam gone, there are many who have expressed their discontent with the manner in which this was achieved.

[chloe_cc2002]

DAMN SCRAP THAT LAST QUOTE...MESSED IT UP...MEANT TO QUOTE THE FOLLOWING. SIGH, ANYWAY.......

QUOTE (zhelynd @ 10 April 2003 - 00:17)
QUOTE (ne1GotZardoz @ 10 April 2003 - 00:28)
QUOTE (tracydani @ 9 April 2003 - 16:36)
I am by no means one of the deeper thinkers on this board. Nor am I as well informed as some.

But I have been wondering these last few weeks.&nbsp; People have been refering to many Iraqi&#39;s smiling as the coalition forces come to them.&nbsp; They have used this as further proof that what we are doing is right and that the population there is eager to welcome us in thanks for freeing them.

But I have been wondering to myself.&nbsp; How would I react to an invading force that has already attacked us in the past and is so obviously more powerfull then my own country?&nbsp; I mean, by experiance, I know that they are gonna win in the end and I have nothing to gain but my possible death for interfearing.
Would I react in anger or would I be smiling my best knowing that these people who are surrounding me with tanks and guns are gonna be deciding my future for me?


The other thing I have been thinking about is this.&nbsp; Will Saddam win this fight against America?
I know he will most likely die at the end of this(and may already be dead), but will he win in the end?

So far, all the weapons of mass destruction we have accused him of having as an excuse to attack, have not been found.&nbsp; Just as Saddam said.
Will this end with America losing more in the end then a war with Iraq?&nbsp; Will people overlook the fact that the reason we went to war wasn&#39;t realized in the end?&nbsp; Or will everyone really begin to be anti American giving Saddam the final victory?

Just curious what others think on this&nbsp;

I don&#39;t know, Tracy...When we invaded Iraq,

who defended the Iraqi citizens?

Who attacked the Iraqi citizens?

I think when you look at it in that respect, there is really no question what the reality was here.&nbsp;

Speaking of such nobel pursuit, when are we gonna see some US invovlement in Congo where 1000 innocent people were massacured....
my guess would be the day they found 200 trillion tonnes of oil under Congolian soil.&nbsp;

[ne1GotZardoz]

Originally posted by chloe_cc2002@10 April 2003 - 05:35
DAMN SCRAP THAT LAST QUOTE...MESSED IT UP...MEANT TO QUOTE THE FOLLOWING. SIGH, ANYWAY.......

QUOTE (zhelynd @ 10 April 2003 - 00:17)
QUOTE (ne1GotZardoz @ 10 April 2003 - 00:28)
QUOTE (tracydani @ 9 April 2003 - 16:36)
I am by no means one of the deeper thinkers on this board. Nor am I as well informed as some.

But I have been wondering these last few weeks. People have been refering to many Iraqi&#39;s smiling as the coalition forces come to them. They have used this as further proof that what we are doing is right and that the population there is eager to welcome us in thanks for freeing them.

But I have been wondering to myself. How would I react to an invading force that has already attacked us in the past and is so obviously more powerfull then my own country? I mean, by experiance, I know that they are gonna win in the end and I have nothing to gain but my possible death for interfearing.
Would I react in anger or would I be smiling my best knowing that these people who are surrounding me with tanks and guns are gonna be deciding my future for me?


The other thing I have been thinking about is this. Will Saddam win this fight against America?
I know he will most likely die at the end of this(and may already be dead), but will he win in the end?

So far, all the weapons of mass destruction we have accused him of having as an excuse to attack, have not been found. Just as Saddam said.
Will this end with America losing more in the end then a war with Iraq? Will people overlook the fact that the reason we went to war wasn&#39;t realized in the end? Or will everyone really begin to be anti American giving Saddam the final victory?

Just curious what others think on this

I don&#39;t know, Tracy...When we invaded Iraq,

who defended the Iraqi citizens?

Who attacked the Iraqi citizens?

I think when you look at it in that respect, there is really no question what the reality was here.

Speaking of such nobel pursuit, when are we gonna see some US invovlement in Congo where 1000 innocent people were massacured....
my guess would be the day they found 200 trillion tonnes of oil under Congolian soil.

Chloe,

All you needed to do was click the "quote" button at the upper right of the message you were replying to.

It automatically quotes the whole message keeping the thread intact, and gives you a separate box to type your reply in.

Peace

[chloe_cc2002]

thanks, a little while since I have been here. Thats my excuse anyway but thanks for the tip. vis a vis quoting properly.

[ClubDiggler]

Originally posted by zhelynd+10 April 2003 - 06:17--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (zhelynd @ 10 April 2003 - 06:17)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -ne1GotZardoz@10 April 2003 - 00:28
<!--QuoteBegin--tracydani

@9 April 2003 - 16:36
I am by no means one of the deeper thinkers on this board. Nor am I as well informed as some.

But I have been wondering these last few weeks. People have been refering to many Iraqi&#39;s smiling as the coalition forces come to them. They have used this as further proof that what we are doing is right and that the population there is eager to welcome us in thanks for freeing them.

But I have been wondering to myself. How would I react to an invading force that has already attacked us in the past and is so obviously more powerfull then my own country? I mean, by experiance, I know that they are gonna win in the end and I have nothing to gain but my possible death for interfearing.
Would I react in anger or would I be smiling my best knowing that these people who are surrounding me with tanks and guns are gonna be deciding my future for me?


The other thing I have been thinking about is this. Will Saddam win this fight against America?
I know he will most likely die at the end of this(and may already be dead), but will he win in the end?

So far, all the weapons of mass destruction we have accused him of having as an excuse to attack, have not been found. Just as Saddam said.
Will this end with America losing more in the end then a war with Iraq? Will people overlook the fact that the reason we went to war wasn&#39;t realized in the end? Or will everyone really begin to be anti American giving Saddam the final victory?

Just curious what others think on this

I don&#39;t know, Tracy...When we invaded Iraq,

who defended the Iraqi citizens?

Who attacked the Iraqi citizens?

I think when you look at it in that respect, there is really no question what the reality was here.

Speaking of such nobel pursuit, when are we gonna see some US invovlement in Congo where 1000 innocent people were massacured....
my guess would be the day they found 200 trillion tonnes of oil under Congolian soil. [/b][/quote]
So, you want the US to do everything huh&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

Why don&#39;t some other F****n country help out a little.

That would be nice; but I think whinning about the US is easier.

[Z]

clubdiggler - its true. they hate, but they need. and they admire.