I would like to argue something pretty important to me.

[Busyman]

Great!!!

Now that I have time (since there alot that agree with Jonno), I will explain.

Yes. You're showing you are afraid.Showing weakness.

By having security?

I'll bring it down in scale a bit, you get into a fight and you hit the other guy.
If he then got all his mates to stand in front of him ,you'd think him a coward, next time you see him you wont be afraid of him because he backs down and is weak and needs protecting (often like leader bullies in schools)
If on the other hand, you hit him and he stands there blank face, you would instantly think to yourself he's a tough guy and you gonna have to hit him harder than that, or maybe don't mess with him cos you gave him your best shot and he just smilied at you.

Bullshit. In the real world and not this movie shit, if a fella had people protecting him, I would think him a coward. However, if I hit him and he smiles, I'm still going to fuck him up. Besides all-o-dat, none of that has shit to do security in a country. You are supposed to take measures to protect yourself. Terrorists want ruin America by destroying monuments, people, infrastructure, and markets. They will not stop due to us smiling and moving on. If anything, reduction in security will encourage it.

Now bring the scale back up.

They hit Isreal and it posts a centry on every corner.
That statement says "We are afraid of you and we need protecting"

Usa, Uk and several others get hit and we clean up, mourn our lost and carry on as normal.
That statement says "You can hit us as hard as you like but we wont be forced to live in fear from you"

Ya see, 9/11 because of lack security. A passive attitude does not relieve problems and actually will encourage it.

By your post, I think we should eliminate the Metro cops from the subway system.

In essence, WE DO NEED PROTECTING. duh. ...and it can be done without too much harassment.

Otherwise, you curl up and die. For many folk, if ya don't pick up a weapon to arm yourself and turn your back, they will shoot you anyway.

Your post was full of the most liberal bullshit rationale I have ever heard, and I'm considered liberal.

Why are we supposed to take measures to protect ourselves? Are we expecting to be attacked at every turn? I'm not. If you are, then you prove the entire point I've been trying to make. That terrorism causes fear. You choose to give in to that fear and feel the need to protect yourself against something that may or may not happen again. I choose to go about my life the same as before. I'm not naive, I'm aware of what can happen. I choose not to let it run my life, as I've said before.

I remember what things were like after 9/11. People being harrassed for no other reason than having an Arabic last name. It was like that here as well, my stepkids are of Arabic descent and took a lot of crap at school because of their dark skin. It was a sad state in countries that pride themselves on being multicultural. That's the way we want to live? In constant suspicion?

I don't believe in just fighting a disease. I think it's more important to find a cure. As manker said earlier, eye for an eye only escalates the problem. Maybe it's time to look at why it happens instead of just increasing security and sending back a "proportionate response".

At this point, why it happens is cultish.

Remember there are no amount of concessions that will appease the bad apples. However, you can influence those that aren't already drawn in.

What you are talking about regarding harassment is an entirely different matter. For instance, here we have increased security sans the harassment.

I'm talking more bodies patrolling the areas and not making everyone open their bags on any little whim.

If we had armed guards on the subways, I couldn't give a rat's ass. For the most part security should be mostly transparent but ever changing it it's visibility. It makes potential terrorists harder to get a beed on making concrete plans but gives Joepublic the sense of being more secure.

[Busyman]

Great!!!

Now that I have time (since there alot that agree with Jonno), I will explain.


By having security?

I'll bring it down in scale a bit, you get into a fight and you hit the other guy.
If he then got all his mates to stand in front of him ,you'd think him a coward, next time you see him you wont be afraid of him because he backs down and is weak and needs protecting (often like leader bullies in schools)
If on the other hand, you hit him and he stands there blank face, you would instantly think to yourself he's a tough guy and you gonna have to hit him harder than that, or maybe don't mess with him cos you gave him your best shot and he just smilied at you.

Bullshit. In the real world and not this movie shit, if a fella had people protecting him, I would think him a coward. However, if I hit him and he smiles, I'm still going to fuck him up. Besides all-o-dat, none of that has shit to do security in a country. You are supposed to take measures to protect yourself. Terrorists want ruin America by destroying monuments, people, infrastructure, and markets. They will not stop due to us smiling and moving on. If anything, reduction in security will encourage it.

Now bring the scale back up.

They hit Isreal and it posts a centry on every corner.
That statement says "We are afraid of you and we need protecting"

Usa, Uk and several others get hit and we clean up, mourn our lost and carry on as normal.
That statement says "You can hit us as hard as you like but we wont be forced to live in fear from you"

Ya see, 9/11 because of lack security. A passive attitude does not relieve problems and actually will encourage it.

By your post, I think we should eliminate the Metro cops from the subway system.

In essence, WE DO NEED PROTECTING. duh. ...and it can be done without too much harassment.

Otherwise, you curl up and die. For many folk, if ya don't pick up a weapon to arm yourself and turn your back, they will shoot you anyway.

Your post was full of the most liberal bullshit rationale I have ever heard, and I'm considered liberal.

Why are we supposed to take measures to protect ourselves? Are we expecting to be attacked at every turn? I'm not. If you are, then you prove the entire point I've been trying to make. That terrorism causes fear. You choose to give in to that fear and feel the need to protect yourself against something that may or may not happen again. I choose to go about my life the same as before. I'm not naive, I'm aware of what can happen. I choose not to let it run my life, as I've said before.

I remember what things were like after 9/11. People being harrassed for no other reason than having an Arabic last name. It was like that here as well, my stepkids are of Arabic descent and took a lot of crap at school because of their dark skin. It was a sad state in countries that pride themselves on being multicultural. That's the way we want to live? In constant suspicion?

I don't believe in just fighting a disease. I think it's more important to find a cure. As manker said earlier, eye for an eye only escalates the problem. Maybe it's time to look at why it happens instead of just increasing security and sending back a "proportionate response".

The Met just admitted that since the Iraqi conflict, they estimate 3000.. yes, i said 3000, people in the UK are now sympathetic with the Fundamentalist Islamic Terrorists.

I really dont want my world being made safer that way.

I still remember when everytime i heard an Irish accent I was looking with suspicion, when i was in a pub taking my turn as lookout...

I didnt want coppers to have guns then, i still dont.

I'd rather live free thanks, without every nutter (and i wouldnt trust some of our soldiers with guns, never mind our police) being able to carry firearms.


Nikki, you forget busymans culture where the guns are freely available and everyone has a few... Its different to ours.

I'm sure if i'd been brought up in a place where they were visible all the time, were freely available and every petty thief is armed, i'd feel different.

...and isn't it sumthin'?

We still live our lives as happy as can be.

Many of you still miss the point.

Being passive with no protection is fucking stupid.

You can secure yourself almost transparently.
I hear extremes to prove a point when those extremes aren't necessary and for me, don't exist.

[Jon L. Obscene]

Well RF brought to light about your culture.
Explains quite a bit, like I said ealier in this or in another post , why do you need to protect yourself with steel bullets?
IF you REALLY are that afraid that you need weapons to feel safe, why do you have to have weapons that kill with the squeeze of a trigger?

In the uk you got no chance of getting a gun, not legally anyway.
Hell , there are only a couple of places where police carry more than a batton and pepper spray in the uk.
We feel safe, the threat is still there with your armed guards, cept you are showing fear.

Places like Isreal have busses exploding and shit like that far too frequently.
Why??
What good are these guards doing?

Show me proof these Guards are making people feel safe and actually making the country a safer place.

Personally I find the thought that pretty much anyone can own a gun rather disturbing.
Jesus christ you can't even own a powerful catapolt here.

Do we moan about national saftey?

No

So like I said, prove me wrong.

Jonno

[Busyman]

Well RF brought to light about your culture.
Explains quite a bit, like I said ealier in this or in another post , why do you need to protect yourself with steel bullets?
IF you REALLY are that afraid that you need weapons to feel safe, why do you have to have weapons that kill with the squeeze of a trigger?

In the uk you got no chance of getting a gun, not legally anyway.
Hell , there are only a couple of places where police carry more than a batton and pepper spray in the uk.
We feel safe, the threat is still there with your armed guards, cept you are showing fear.

Places like Isreal have busses exploding and shit like that far too frequently.
Why??
What good are these guards doing?

Show me proof these Guards are making people feel safe and actually making the country a safer place.

Personally I find the thought that pretty much anyone can own a gun rather disturbing.
Jesus christ you can't even own a powerful catapolt here.

Do we moan about national saftey?

No

So like I said, prove me wrong.

Jonno

Remove your entire police force then.

.....and why do they need pepper spray and a batton?

And yes you do moan about national safety.

You'd be some dumbfucks not to change something in your security measures on your subway system. This does not have to include harassment.

I heard that you had a very good camera system.

Regarding guns, I chill in my backyard. Sleep in my hammock at night.

Yet I own guns. STFW. My ownership is transparent...until I need to use it.

[Rat Faced]

Coz even a limey petty thief can pick up a stick

[Jon L. Obscene]

Oh ffs, I'm sorry but there's a world of difference between pepper spray and a gun.
The police is different, they are there to inforce laws, normal household laws.
The police's main concern is not terrorism, it's drunken disturbances.
And the police are a deterant to law breakers.

Placing an armed (with automatics guns) guard on every bus train and cafe door is a little different from a local bobby plodding the drunken beat.

So don't even try and interconnect the 2 because that arguement holds no wieght whatsoever in this discussion.

Jonno

Edit: wait.......by your comment of you used to beat after 10pm, does that mean you were a copper?
That would also explain your views, you see things only from a coppers pov, not joe publics pov and you always will, I'm not taking the piss here I'm serious. It is programmed into you to protect and serve.......what were you protecting and serving from?
Did you know where a drug deal was gonna go down? did you know about drive by shootings? or did you get there AFTER the event?
So by your logic there should be a copper on guard 24/7 on every street in the world. Cos that would make people feel safe would'nt it

[Busyman]

Oh ffs, I'm sorry but there's a world of difference between pepper spray and a gun.
The police is different, they are there to inforce laws, normal household laws.
The police's main concern is not terrorism, it's drunken disturbances.
And the police are a deterant to law breakers.

Placing an armed (with automatics guns) guard on every bus train and cafe door is a little different from a local bobby plodding the drunken beat.

So don't even try and interconnect the 2 because that arguement holds no wieght whatsoever in this discussion.

Jonno

Neither does yours. You keep bringing up armed guards with automatic guns on every bus, train and cafe when the only person that seems to embrace that is tralalalalalala.

You've proven my point. Police are a deterant to law breakers. WTF does the stepped up security do?

Not having stepped up security encourages more 9/11's. I'm sure the hijackers took awhile due to planning....planning on how to get past security measures (and learning to fly).

If the London subway security remains static then I'm sure there will be a repeat performance of that atrocity.

What pisses me off about our security is that it is reactive. After your subway bombing then we had stepped up security. Great!!...what about all this stepped up shit after 9/11?

[Jon L. Obscene]

Neither does yours. You keep bringing up armed guards with automatic guns on every bus, train and cafe when the only person that seems to embrace that is tralalalalalala.

So you're agreeing with me now?
You make no sense man.

Isreal hav'nt stepped up security, they are a military state pretty much.
I was arguing against Rafi's point of armed guards in isreal is good, wtf have you been talking about?

Jonno

[Busyman]

Neither does yours. You keep bringing up armed guards with automatic guns on every bus, train and cafe when the only person that seems to embrace that is tralalalalalala.

So you're agreeing with me now?
You make no sense man.

Isreal hav'nt stepped up security, they are a military state pretty much.
I was arguing against Rafi's point of armed guards in isreal is good, wtf have you been talking about?

Jonno

Now? Check post #97.

[Jon L. Obscene]

Ah, you're arguing my point that heavy security makes you look week.

Well I'm sorry but to me a person or place that needs heavy security at their own home is showing fear, if you don't live in fear, why do you need the security like that?

Jonno