Benazir Bhutto assassinated

[ilw]

judaism &christianity were just as retarded back in the day, its just that they have modernised...

That's the key point. You seem to acknowledge the fact that quite a bunch of Muslims, and that quite a bunch of Muslim laws are fitted for the middle ages. Problem is, these laws are taken and practiced as "full country laws", unlike the somewhat weird Jewish laws, and somewhat weird Christian laws, when I can do whatever the hell I like. That's one of my main argument points. Radical Islam has to quit thinking that killing and spilling blood all over the walls is going to be the way to get what they could achieve anyways by sitting down and talking to the certain people they crave to wipe of the earth so much.

you've changed your point, I can pretty much agree with what you say above.

Oh, and what were you to say if you were part of a small non-religious group living in Malaysia about such a law, and a "so-called" democratic country? Hardly a democratic law to me. I mean, even Israel, which has it's religious laws (no business can operate on the Sabbath for instance) doesn't reach such ridiculous ideas for laws.

Then, one can come and offer the argument about the "Mohammed teddybear". I must ask you ilw: Who the hell are the people in the Sudan to demand the stoning (and as a result the killing of) that (may I say moronic) British woman? I mean.. Calling a fluffy toy Mohammed.. A reason to kill?

If that's not extremism I'm not sure I know what is...

I wasn't sure what you were talking about here, but then i realised it might be a translation problem. I'm not sure 'who the hell' is the phrase you're looking for, I think you mean something more like 'what are they like' (english slang for expressing disbelief at the stupidity of others).
'Who the hell are they to do that' means something more like 'what gives them the right to do that' and the people in sudan and malaysia surely have the right to do almost anything in their own country

[tralalala]

That's what international law is as far as I figure.

Its ridiculous to let go cases like this, which show us how radical (and ridicule) religion can get (in this, and many other cases, Islam). Stop and think for a moment - If you bought a teddy bear, and named it Jesus for a laugh, then the next day an angry mob would knock against your door demanding you get stoned to death.. Wouldn't you think it's the mob that should stand to trial rather than you? Don't you think it's cases like these that should bring us to think what are we meant to do so that the next generation of Muslims doesn't get even worse than the current one? At their rate of reproduction, we'll have an Al-Quaeda state within the next 10-15 years, easy. In my mind, if nothing is done to calm these radical gits down, within the next 30 years or so some shit is gonna drop. Something way heavier than 9/11. It's only the simple and obvious way to look at it.

[ilw]

what are you suggesting we do? and whats an al-qaeda state?

[tralalala]

Al Quaeda state? Exactly what it sounds like. Radical Muslims take over a Muslim state (say for the same of argument - the Sudan), government - All Al Quaeda people. In other words, instead of being a group, they excel to being a proper state with an ideology behind them etc..

And what do I suggest we do? To be honest, I'm ill right now (seriously.. been vomiting all day, what a way to start 2008 ), I'll give it some thought and post back sometime this week

[ilw]

didn't the taliban (and probably others) already do the whole radical muslim state about 10 years ago?

as for what we should do I think you'll have trouble coming up with stuff because people in general are bloody-minded and whatever you try to support will be more likely to fail because you're supporting it. Although i did see an interesting article which went someway along Marxist lines and suggested that support for radical islam generally results from poverty and anger initially directed at the corrupt elite that control many muslim countries. So the article was perhaps suggesting that we have all the wrong friends in the world (e.g. the Saudi royal family), and i thought the idea had some merit.

[tralalala]

So I'm sensing that you feel we should try do do as little as possible in order to reduce the amount of "stuff" radical Muslims do worldwide?

I mean, there's a couple ways to look at it - First, you could let stuff ride as it is now, then within some 15 years have a nuclear war against some terror group, kill a billion people on earth, then someone may stand up and say "hey.. are these Muslims that claim to be Allahs fighters really doing us a favor by blasting the hell out of everyone in sight?", and I suppose then a couple years would pass till quietness is restored in the world. Second option would be to try and get this type of sense into peoples minds now, rather than later. It's funny seeing how people seem to take Muslim terrorist acts so light-minded, it's only going to explode in your face sooner or later.

[ilw]

no, not as little as possible, I just think you're going to have to be a bit more intelligent than killing the bad guys and funding the good guys. To be honest i was hoping you'd suggest things because its a fkload easier to shoot ideas down than to make them up and i've never really considered what i'd do. Thinking about it on the spot though there are a number of 'worldwide' things that could be tried (I'll skip thinking about things to do within england):
1) change the way we deal with the corrupt leaders of various countries most notably Saudi Arabia, where we're propping up a dodgy dodgy regime in a country which supplied half the 9/11 terrorists. Maybe forge a closer alliance with Jordan as they seem to be a more forward looking and stable nation
2) invest more heavily in fusion research, as once we don't need oil we're in a much better position to deal with the middle east.
3) Maybe a muslim US president would be interesting, at the very least someone who isn't stupid enough to believe in good and evil would be nice
4) Push for making kashmir a separate state or a co-owned state with a fair degree of autonomy
5) Put pressure on Israel to roll back to 1967 borders (approximately) and make jerusalem an autonomous and protected city. Facts on the ground should carry no weight in the negotiations otherwise it sets the worst possible precedent. Enforce the existing UN resolutions that apply to the region.
6) The liberalisation (?) of Islam is basically happening in the west, I'm not sure how it can be encouraged to spread, perhaps encouraging Muslims who grew up in the west to return to their parent's home nations (at least those nations which aren't in the shit right now)
7) Stop the war on drugs and instead legalise & control it and turn addiction back into a medical problem (to help stabilise afghanistan)
8) Reign in the arms trade worldwide, in particular put as much pressure on reducing the manufacture and supply of small arms (i.e. a total cessation of these arms from the west and as much of a clampdown on the small scale manufacture of stuff like ak47s as possible)
9) A push for a worldwide reduction in child bearing across all religions & races as population explosion will scupper just about anything.
10) Big increases in the funding for education of the poor worldwide

[orfik]

I have to say, when the extremists want someone dead, they don't fuck around. Almost 180 casualties to kill one woman. Have these people ever heard of sniper rifles?

[maebach]

So I'm sensing that you feel we should try do do as little as possible in order to reduce the amount of "stuff" radical Muslims do worldwide?

I mean, there's a couple ways to look at it - First, you could let stuff ride as it is now, then within some 15 years have a nuclear war against some terror group, kill a billion people on earth, then someone may stand up and say "hey.. are these Muslims that claim to be Allahs fighters really doing us a favor by blasting the hell out of everyone in sight?", and I suppose then a couple years would pass till quietness is restored in the world. Second option would be to try and get this type of sense into peoples minds now, rather than later. It's funny seeing how people seem to take Muslim terrorist acts so light-minded, it's only going to explode in your face sooner or later.

I can somewhat agree with your position.

no, not as little as possible, I just think you're going to have to be a bit more intelligent than killing the bad guys and funding the good guys. To be honest i was hoping you'd suggest things because its a fkload easier to shoot ideas down than to make them up and i've never really considered what i'd do. Thinking about it on the spot though there are a number of 'worldwide' things that could be tried (I'll skip thinking about things to do within england):
1) change the way we deal with the corrupt leaders of various countries most notably Saudi Arabia, where we're propping up a dodgy dodgy regime in a country which supplied half the 9/11 terrorists. Maybe forge a closer alliance with Jordan as they seem to be a more forward looking and stable nation
2) invest more heavily in fusion research, as once we don't need oil we're in a much better position to deal with the middle east.
3) Maybe a muslim US president would be interesting, at the very least someone who isn't stupid enough to believe in good and evil would be nice
4) Push for making kashmir a separate state or a co-owned state with a fair degree of autonomy
5) Put pressure on Israel to roll back to 1967 borders (approximately) and make jerusalem an autonomous and protected city. Facts on the ground should carry no weight in the negotiations otherwise it sets the worst possible precedent. Enforce the existing UN resolutions that apply to the region.
6) The liberalisation (?) of Islam is basically happening in the west, I'm not sure how it can be encouraged to spread, perhaps encouraging Muslims who grew up in the west to return to their parent's home nations (at least those nations which aren't in the shit right now)
7) Stop the war on drugs and instead legalise & control it and turn addiction back into a medical problem (to help stabilise afghanistan)
8) Reign in the arms trade worldwide, in particular put as much pressure on reducing the manufacture and supply of small arms (i.e. a total cessation of these arms from the west and as much of a clampdown on the small scale manufacture of stuff like ak47s as possible)
9) A push for a worldwide reduction in child bearing across all religions & races as population explosion will scupper just about anything.
10) Big increases in the funding for education of the poor worldwide

1) agree
2)somewhat agree. fusion research would take billions. that would need to be a project worked on by all of the world
3)NEVER! Are you fckin crazy?
4)fuck the muslims in kashmir. we (india) gave them pakistan they should be content with that. I totally disagree with giving them pakistan in the first place. but since we did, they should leave if they dont like kashmir. Its like what happened to teh natives here in canada, white people came, asked for help, got it, then killed them. that's whats happening to india, they asked, we gave, and now they want more.
5)stupid. its like asking a dog and cat to sleep together
6)meh
7)again, that would take international co-operation because every country has problem with drugs
8)agree
9)yes, especially africa. fckin stupid how they're such shit and still having kids
10) join with 9. we were taught at school that the more educated a woman is, the less children she has because she understands the circumstances she will face.

[ilw]

I can somewhat agree with your position.

no, not as little as possible, I just think you're going to have to be a bit more intelligent than killing the bad guys and funding the good guys. To be honest i was hoping you'd suggest things because its a fkload easier to shoot ideas down than to make them up and i've never really considered what i'd do. Thinking about it on the spot though there are a number of 'worldwide' things that could be tried (I'll skip thinking about things to do within england):
1) change the way we deal with the corrupt leaders of various countries most notably Saudi Arabia, where we're propping up a dodgy dodgy regime in a country which supplied half the 9/11 terrorists. Maybe forge a closer alliance with Jordan as they seem to be a more forward looking and stable nation
2) invest more heavily in fusion research, as once we don't need oil we're in a much better position to deal with the middle east.
3) Maybe a muslim US president would be interesting, at the very least someone who isn't stupid enough to believe in good and evil would be nice
4) Push for making kashmir a separate state or a co-owned state with a fair degree of autonomy
5) Put pressure on Israel to roll back to 1967 borders (approximately) and make jerusalem an autonomous and protected city. Facts on the ground should carry no weight in the negotiations otherwise it sets the worst possible precedent. Enforce the existing UN resolutions that apply to the region.
6) The liberalisation (?) of Islam is basically happening in the west, I'm not sure how it can be encouraged to spread, perhaps encouraging Muslims who grew up in the west to return to their parent's home nations (at least those nations which aren't in the shit right now)
7) Stop the war on drugs and instead legalise & control it and turn addiction back into a medical problem (to help stabilise afghanistan)
8) Reign in the arms trade worldwide, in particular put as much pressure on reducing the manufacture and supply of small arms (i.e. a total cessation of these arms from the west and as much of a clampdown on the small scale manufacture of stuff like ak47s as possible)
9) A push for a worldwide reduction in child bearing across all religions & races as population explosion will scupper just about anything.
10) Big increases in the funding for education of the poor worldwide

1) agree
2)somewhat agree. fusion research would take billions. that would need to be a project worked on by all of the world
3)NEVER! Are you fckin crazy?
4)fuck the muslims in kashmir. we (india) gave them pakistan they should be content with that. I totally disagree with giving them pakistan in the first place. but since we did, they should leave if they dont like kashmir. Its like what happened to teh natives here in canada, white people came, asked for help, got it, then killed them. that's whats happening to india, they asked, we gave, and now they want more.
5)stupid. its like asking a dog and cat to sleep together
6)meh
7)again, that would take international co-operation because every country has problem with drugssort of ring fence the
8)agree
9)yes, especially africa. fckin stupid how they're such shit and still having kids
10) join with 9. we were taught at school that the more educated a woman is, the less children she has because she understands the circumstances she will face.

2) fusion research is already a global thing and does cost billions and the law of reducing gains naturally applies to any increased investment, but personally i'd be willing to spend more, a lot more. Maybe i'm just being impatient but i don't want to have to wait 50 years...

3) lol, muslims aren't your enemy. Whats the worst that could happen.

4) i didn't suggest giving away kashmir, and why do you care, you don't live there do you? Are you just expressioning some nationalistic feelings?

5) there are currently no good solutions, ultimately i favour a one state non-racist solution (i.e. not a jewish state, just a state for all the people across all the land)

7) yes it sort of would, although if we could get all of europe on board i think that would be a sufficiently large area and would allow you to be independent of the rest of the world

10) true but religion screws it up. The vatican in particular have a lot to answer for in Africa because of their bullsh t about contraception