This contradicts what I said ... how exactly? Between the two dates Arafat has shifted on the right of return (as have the Arab League) and is prepared to compromise. Where are Isreal's compromises 'in return?The Israeli public elected Barak who offered the Palestinians enough to get a final settlement. Before you start blabbering about canotons, go read about the Taba agreement that Arafat claimed was a humiliation, only to say 18 months later say "I am prepared to accept it, absolutely"
The IRA used to do the same here in elections. You are going to let Hamas and other terrorists appropriate the peace process? The reason Arafat "sat on his ass" is beacause he is ringed by the IDF who refuse to let him travel and even have communications with the outside world. Any attempt at reconstruction is destroyed by the IDF. Incidently, I don't regard Arafat as some Messiah figure. He is the elected leader of the palestinians - no more no less. He is like politicians everywhere, and far from perfect.In 1996, the Israeli public was set to elect the voice of the Left, Shimon Peres as he led right-wing Netanyahu by 20% just 2 months before the election. Hamas and Islamic Jihad bombed buses and restaurants non-stop for those last two months while Arafat sat on his ass and watched. Peres' support dropped with each bombing until Netanyahu pulled out a victory by less than 1%.
You mean Hamas and how much Sharon and others let them dictate events. Remember you are talking to someone from a country with long experience of terrorism.If only Arafat realized (cared) how much he affects Israeli elections.
I agree, your point is? Again you bring Egypt and others into a discussion of the palestinians.Israel hardly has a patent on PM assasinations. Anwar Sadat was killed by his own troops after he made peace with Israel and got back the entire Sinai
I said help of any note. Adding 20000 guns to an unstable region is not exactly helpful. Try not demolishing police stations, shooting policemen, and the rest of the box of tricks used by the IDF to stop a palestinians infrastructure.Read the Oslo Accord. Israel supplied the Palestnian police force with 20 000 rifles to use in order to provide order and security to the areas that Israel departed from.
Isreal has always targetted any signs of the formation of a viable palestinian state. That includes the security forces such as police. For further evidence, see what happened to the equipment provided by the EU.Israel did not start targetting the PA police infrastructure until a full year had passed in the current intifadah.
You keep saying "current intifada" btw. Why are you atetmpting to split into small parts a resistance movement that has being on since 1948? Do you have seperate names for different eras of resistance in France?
The spike is due to numerous IDF raids on heavily populated towns and refugee camps.You'll also notice the Btselem stats for number dead jump in 2002 once Palestinian police became neck-deep into the attacks
You quote the Oslo accords and demand that the palestinians abide by them, but why don't the Isreali's? Do you criticise them for not complying either?
The Article you quote is violated by Isreal daily - Both sides shall take all measures necessary in order to prevent acts of terrorism, crime and hostilities directed against each other, against individuals falling under the other's authority and against their property, and shall take legal measures against offenders.
There are no convictions for the mass punishments and the home demolitions never mind the murders by the IDF. Even for foreigners all you might get is a negligance charge and not even man slaughter for shooting an unarmed man holding a child in the head.
Arafat has condemned bombings by Hamas as terrorism too and he would dearly love to close it down if he could. Point is he can't when the IDF has him under house arrest without communications and bombs his police. Any politician would love to remove his political opponents, Arafat is no different. Why do you hold a whole people responsible for the terrorism of a few, when the same law could be applied to Isreal? Should we all judge Israel by Kach? If not then we should not judge all palestinians by Hamas.In March 1994, the Israeli cabinet immediately declared Kahane Chai and Kach "terrorist organizations" and made them illegal.
He has called bombing terrorism many times, he just can't do anything to stop them. Apart from the reasons outlined above, due to PLO weakness Hamas has become one of the main sources of education and aid to many palestinians and has been allowed to become a de facto political party due to the IDF caused chaos in the occupied territories.We're still waiting for Arafat to declare Hamas or Islamic Jihad or PLFP or any other terrorist group "illegal".
If you keep saying "palestinians" when you mean Hamas etc I will be forced to refer to all Isreali's as Kach supporters and ethnic cleansers who approve of mass murder. Deal?The only reason that Sharon was elected is the same reason that Netanyahu was elected. Palestinians always seem to step up the bombings when Israelis are given a choice between the Left and Right wing leader.
If you can't leave your racism at the door there is no point discussing anything with you as your hate overrides any logic.
Care to provide the rest of that quote? Thought not, so I will.And if you don't believe that Arafat planned the intifadah, listen to his Communications Minister, Imad Al-Faluji, who is very open about it
The leadership had invested all of its efforts in political and diplomatic channels in order to fix the flaws in the negotiations and the peace process, but to no avail. It encountered Israeli stubbornness and continuous renunciation of the (Palestinian) rights
So they prepared to continue the struggle if the US failed to pressure Isreal. Sounds fair enough to me.
For the last time, no it wasn't. Here's a clue - the original data is from a human rights group.Your water article was written by this guy at this site
Nope, I said the site (note, not page) I got the info from has UN docs, govt reports, independant reports etc. So please, for the sake of your dignity, stop lying about what I said when anyone can check my posts and find out the truth.You say that he referenced UN documents for his facts. I pointed out that he lists his sources as ....
Heh nope, you have though as you have no idea where the data comes from.If those are your source's sources, you've got a problem.
You have already posted the manipulations that went into the wording of the UN document by the US and others under Isreali influence. Under international law, they have to return all the land as it was taken in a war of conquest. Kind of like Kuwait, Poland, France etc. They have also dropped the demand for a right of return in order to make compromises acceptable to the Isreali's.This offer by the Arab League goes further than UN 242. It calls for return of "all the territories". 242 does not.
If the Isreali's got out of the occupied territories, as demanded by the UN and law, then they would get recognition. The Arabs are just complying with the UN, why aren't the Isreali's? On anything? The recognition is there, pending Isreal returning to the fold of civilised nations. Until then, recognition is moot as Isreal is in the same category as many rogue nations not recognised by the world in part or whole.your quote "The arab states however have all recognised Isreals right to exist" is not true. It has been offered as part of this agreement and has always been the basis of all negotiations. It has not occured, contrary to whatever you say.
The offer is there though, peace on the terms of 242, with the palestinians giving up a major legal right. Why are you not pushing for Isreali acceptance?
No that was you who mentioned the %, I just commented that it was half of the actual % of palestinians in the population as an aside. I have pointed out that apartheid is not a factor of suffrage or representation alone. I even gave you a link to the UN site with the specific definition. Try reading this instead of the dictionary, you will find it much more informative.You are the one that claimed that there is some sort of racism because the % of Arab parliamentary members is only half the % of Israeli citizenship.
Here is Article II - For the purpose of the present Convention, the term "the crime of apartheid", which shall include similar policies and practices of racial segregation and discrimination as practised in southern Africa, shall apply to the following inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them:
(a) Denial to a member or members of a racial group or groups of the right to life and liberty of person:
(i) By murder of members of a racial group or groups;
(ii) By the infliction upon the members of a racial group or groups of serious bodily or mental harm, by the infringement of their freedom or dignity, or by subjecting them to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment;
(iii) By arbitrary arrest and illegal imprisonment of the members of a racial group or groups;
(B) Deliberate imposition on a racial group or groups of living conditions calculated to cause its or their physical destruction in whole or in part;
© Any legislative measures and other measures calculated to prevent a racial group or groups from participation in the political, social, economic and cultural life of the country and the deliberate creation of conditions preventing the full development of such a group or groups, in particular by denying to members of a racial group or groups basic human rights and freedoms, including the right to work, the right to form recognized trade unions, the right to education, the right to leave and to return to their country, the right to a nationality, the right to freedom of movement and residence, the right to freedom of opinion and expression, and the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association;
d) Any measures including legislative measures, designed to divide the population along racial lines by the creation of separate reserves and ghettos for the members of a racial group or groups, the prohibition of mixed marriages among members of various racial groups, the expropriation of landed property belonging to a racial group or groups or to members thereof;
(e) Exploitation of the labour of the members of a racial group or groups, in particular by submitting them to forced labour;
(f) Persecution of organizations and persons, by depriving them of fundamental rights and freedoms, because they oppose apartheid
Israel violates these daily.
I did address that, read my posts rather than skimming please.The problem is that you didn't address my point. It's children that the PA bring to the front lines, while militants fire over their heeads
If the IDF is anything like the UK army for eg, you can join slightly before the stated min age for training purposes etc. Still, that extra day makes all the difference does it?Israelis enter the army at 18, not 17. Keep your facts straights
You misunderstand me, I am referring to such quotes from you as "remember why Isreal was founded", the endless accusations of anti semitism, and the use of the Holocaust as a bargaining chip by Isreali politicians.Excuse me, but your the one who likened the Palestinian towns to WWII ghettos, either in this thread or the other
Your proof is where? The Btselem site (which is down right now so I doubt you checked the site since I posted) lists the dead as 4500 and 480. Unless of course you are using a different date arbitrarily. From what date are you counting?Yeah, I kinda figured that you were lying about 4500 Palestinian and 480 Israelis dead. That's why I asked
This matters how? I said palestinian civilians, I count resistance fighters as those civilians. Whether you do or not is irrelavent to the death count. Get out of their land and those civilians wouldn't need to be fighting. Regardless, the vast majority are not connected to armed groups in any way and are simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.You used Btselem's figure for Israeli civilians only but their number for TOTAL Palestinians killed. The problem with Btselem's numbers are that they categorize any non-uniformed person killed as civilian. The vast majority of Palestinian combatants are not uniformed.
Ah "latest". From when to when? A link to the Btselem page where you got the info would be good. I think you are probably referring to the dates 2000 to 2003, where the figures are 2700 dead and 25000 injured. Why are you only starting then? People were dying before that time.Anyways, Btselems latest numbers are:
You believe? You mean you have no idea if it's true or not. Even the most rabid zionist site I could find listed the number as 10000 maximun casualties total on both sides.I believe that he's referring to Jordan and Lebanon. Jordan killed up to 30 000 Palestinians in one month in 1970, but of course there was no covenant to destroy Jordan and no UN resolution condemning Jordan.
The 1967 war led to a dramatic increase in the number of Palestinians living in Jordan. Its Palestinian refugee population -- 700,000 in 1966 -- grew by another 300,000 from the West Bank. The period following the 1967 war saw an upsurge in the power and importance of Palestinian resistance in Jordan. The heavily armed fedayeen constituted a growing threat to the sovereignty and security of the Hashemite state, and open fighting erupted in June 1970. Isreali raids on Jordan in revenge for attacks launched from Jordanian land were also a motivation to remove the fedayeen.
Other Arab governments attempted to work out a peaceful solution, but by September, continuing fedayeen actions in Jordan -- including the destruction of three international airliners hijacked and held in the desert east of Amman -- prompted the government to take action to regain control over its territory and population. In the ensuing heavy fighting, a Syrian tank force took up positions in northern Jordan to support the fedayeen but was forced to retreat. By September 22, Arab foreign ministers meeting at Cairo had arranged a cease-fire beginning the following day. Sporadic violence continued, however, until Jordanian forces won a decisive victory over the fedayeen in July 1971, expelling them from the country.
So Isreal stirred up the region by annexing the occupied territories and expelling 300000 extra refugee's that were beyond the capacity of Jordan to cope. The resulting power struggles with palestinian terrorist/resistance elements forced Jordan to expel them. They had no duty to do nothing and watch Hamas etc take over their country. They did (and still do) however house refugees that are not part of armed groups.
The massacres began on September 17, 1982, following a negotiated settlement whereby the PLO agreed to withdraw from Lebanon in return for U.S. guarantees for the safety of "law abiding Palestinian non-combatants left behind in Beirut." However, after the PLO evacuation (and the withdrawal of the multinational force that supervised the evacuation), the Israeli army encircled the camps of Beirut and allowed its allied right-wing Lebanese militia forces access to Sabra and Shatila. At the end of 48 hours, they left at least 1,500 people dead. The Israeli army looked on from the camp perimeter and provided logistical support to the assailants.WRT Lebanon, you'll recall that although Sharon was found to be indirectly responsible (he should've known better), it was the Lebanese Christians who were responsible for Sabra and Shatilla
Do you think Isreali would have sacked him if there wasn't good evidence of the IDF's involvement? This is the country that does not prosecute soldiers for killing children and pensioners.
Look, I know it's hard for Zionists to accept compromises in the name of peace but Arafat agreed only after he dropped the right of return issue - something he is not popular among palestinians for. He made the compromise, where are the Isreali compromises?Wrong. See Taba. See Arafat's statement 18 months later that he'd accept it then
The map you provide just proves the point even further, with scores of settlements left in the proposed Palestinian land with each having a secure supply corridor. Meaning the IDF controlling huge part of the land. Also bear in mind that the settlements are all built on the best land with hugely better water supplies.
Anyone who can prove residence at that time, or who's family can prove residence at that time. Why they left is irrelavent, they left due to wars between other nations that have nothing to do with them. Palestinians are not Jordanian, Egyptian or Syrian. They are the original occupiers of the land, along with jews, chrisitians, etc.It is impossible to know how many and which ones were kicked out and which left on their own in order to allow for conquering Arab armies
800000? Where did you get that figure from? Same place as the 30000 no doubt. Either way, they have the right of return too and they also have a country called Isreal to go to that was created specifically for jews. You seem to be under the illusion I am some fanatical supporter of every arab nation in the region. Well I'm not, and would argue for the jewish right of return as much as the palestinian one.Up to 800,000 Jews were kicked out of fled from Arab countries around the same time. There is no going back for them.
Refugees in transit are not the same as people returning to the land that is rightfully theirs. Isreal kicked them out and encouraged immigration from all over the world to fill up the areas vacated. It is for the Isreali's to deal with it's agression and it's consequences, not Jordan or anyone else. Isreali jews would probably have to accept lower standards of living, but frankly tough. Shouldn't sieze other people's land in the search for leibensraum then fill it with immigrants while you rely on the US to bolster your economy and military. Speaking of economy, that is where the palestinians have a hope. Isreal cannot afford more years of resistance by the palestinians, especially if the US cuts funding due to law and human rights violations.the same for Israel. It would double their population.
The UN passed a resolution demanding free sea access and the return of the land. The free access is there, why is the land still occupied? On a side note, are you saying that the UK should invade Eire if Eire signs a defence agreement with France?Again, see the UN's Convention on the Territorial Sea and Contiguous Zone. Egypt blocked Israeli access to oil and ordered the UN out of peacekeeping buffer zone. Egypt signed a defense agreement with Jordan. You bet Israel would strike first.
Don't be stupid, this war was in 1967 - 20 years after the palestinian state should have been established. If Jordan hadn't invaded and provided Isreal with a pretext, the land would most likely now be in the same position as southern Lebanon or Gaza. An IDF free fire zone and self declared "security zone". You are also incorrect on the facts of the matter. Jordan had signed a defence pact with Egypt that was activated when Isreal attacked. Same as when the UK declared war on Germany due to the UK's Polish defence pact.Israel, however, did not strike first against Jordan and even told Hussein that they will not open that front if Jordan sayed out. Jordan struck first and created the occupied territory problem. If Jordan had not struck first, the West Bank would be a Palestinian state.
There you go again, we are talking about palestinian rights not the rights of Egyptians, Syrians, etc. Stick to the subject please. I condemn the prevarications by those countries too.It was in their hand, but 5 Arab countries decided to try and take the whole pie instead
Political adventurism on all sides (arab and Isreali) but not from any lack of will by the palestinians themselves. Why do you repeatedly hold the palestinians responsible for the actions of others?Nothing prevented a Palestinian country being created in the West Bank from 1948-1967, though. Why wasn't it?
I said apparently, never said it was gospel. Your link doesn't work btw so can't comment on that. I have heard people both for and against the whether it was fake. I also said that I know some palestinians celebrated it, and told you why. It's because the US finances the army and country that oppresses them.The person who started that rumour was a Brazilian university student who posted it on... guess where... indymedia! Of course, it spread like wildfire among those who believe any anti-Israel junk that is spewed. I'm not surprised that you believed it too
Isreal occupied land pre 67 meant for the palestinians in the original UN resolution. I would also debate the issue with any Jordanian or Egyptian who wants to comment, but it seems there is only the pro Isreal people prepared to attempt a defence. Again you make the mistake of assuming I am pro Syria/Egypt/whoever.So why name Israel as the occupying force and not Jordan, who were occupying the West Bank or Egypt, who were occupying Gaza?
I agree, so we shouldn't let extremists on both sides dictate the agenda. The Arab League has offered an equitable peace agreement but Isreal refuses to respond. If you are Isreali, press for it's acceptance. Or maybe for the recent plan brokered in Europe.You know, this is silly. Neither will convince the other. Do I believe that Israel is 100% correct? No. But put in the situation in which it finds itself, I think it's done about as expected. Israelis, contrary to what you might think are not inherently evil and neither are Palestinians.
I disagree with your defence of Isreali actions of course. There is no excuse for the oppression inflicted on the palestinians.
Iraq is a war zone, the occupied territories are a process of attrition to occupy land over a long period. There is little comparison. If the Isreali's set up a puppet admin over a new palestinian state, it would be more comparable.Already, more Iraqi civilians have been killed in the past year than Palestinians in the 3 years. So if Israel is targetting civilians, what the hell are Americans doing? Taking better aim?
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks