Land Of The Free? Imprisonment Without Trial

[ilw]

Yeah we may be learning a lot about individual people, but nothing really about the topic. No one is really arguing a case and bringing up interesting points, its degenerated to a back and forth about how much force Israel should be allowed to use in hunting down and killing militants. And in a heated debate I find that i usually become more extremist than i really feel.

[Billy_Dean]

I think you may be right, I'd like the chance to debate Israel - Palestine too.

I'd also welcome some time to swat up on facts.

I too become a little radical, unfortunately it becomes necessary when you know people are masking their true feelings.

[evilbagpuss]

Originally posted by ilw+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ilw)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>its degenerated to a back and forth about how much force Israel should be allowed to use in hunting down and killing militants[/b]

Not quite.. this is very relevant to the terrorist problem we face today.

<!--QuoteBegin-EBP

For decades our countries have provided billions of dollars of military aid to Israel knowing it is being (ab)used to kill women and children.

&#39;We&#39; are then shocked and surprised when the favour is returned. [/quote]

The constant "back and forth" is merely a symptom of the resistance one encounters when making any sort of point that doesnt involve 100% support for Israeli atrocities.

Once that has been dealt with and the origins of this resistance is uncovered.. (we&#39;re nearly there and its quite disturbing) then we can move on. Like Billy_Dean said, some people are hiding their true feelings underneath a veneer of respectability.

Pussy footing around each other is a waste of time. There are more important things at stake than fragile egos.

[j2k4]

One last post here:

EBP-

I just did the math-no search needed.

You have, on many occasions, urged that the U.S. drop it&#39;s support for Israel and encourage them to "stand down", yes?

Then you make your statement:

Quote/evilbagpuss)

The Palestinian extremists would wipe out the Jews if the US dropped its support...(Unquote)


One is left to conclude only that which is obvious.

Hoist on your own petard, matey.

[evilbagpuss]

Originally posted by j2k4+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You have, on many occasions, urged that the U.S. drop it&#39;s support for Israel and encourage them to "stand down", yes[/b]

No. I challenge you to provide one iota of evidence that shows your statement to be true. If there are "many occassions" it shouldnt be too hard.. yes?

I have stated that the US should use its considerable influence to stop Israel committing atrocities.

Yet again... I am encouraged by your &#39;tactics&#39;.

One of us supports genocide and its certainly not me. I guess you have to draw a distinction between innocent civilians and "innocent" civilians eh?

<!--QuoteBegin-j2k4
EBP goes on and on about an Israeli bomb/missile going off in the midst of a block of "innocent" Palestinians, and demands an explanation/justification.[/quote]

[j2k4]

If you mean to say that you haven&#39;t said the U.S. should remove support, "just discourage Israel from using their U.S.-provided might against the Palestinians", I think we&#39;ve done that, especially lately.

As far as providing Israel with military capability, aside from the reasons for which we do this (regional hostility: i.e. the Palestinians, etc.), I think it would be silly for us to arm Israel and then admonish them for using the materiel to defend themselves.

In any case, while you have said on many occasions that you did not say this, here it is:

(Quote/EBP)

How about if the USA threatened to remove it&#39;s support unless the Israelis use it for defence only?

(Unquote)

I think that fits the bill nicely, and before you piss and moan about context, learn to practice what you preach.

You added hypocrite to your list of sins long ago, but I point it out here for posterity.

[evilbagpuss]

Originally posted by j2k4+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If you mean to say that you haven&#39;t said the U.S. should remove support, "just discourage Israel from using their U.S.-provided might against the Palestinians", I think we&#39;ve done that, especially lately.[/b]

The US has been subsidising Israeli atrocities for over 30 years. Too little too late my friend.

If you really think the US has attempted to discourage Israeli atrocities recently you are very much mistaken. The only thing that will work is if the US threatens to remove its support and we both know that will never happen.

Originally posted by j2k4+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>As far as providing Israel with military capability, aside from the reasons for which we do this (regional hostility: i.e. the Palestinians, etc.), I think it would be silly for us to arm Israel and then admonish them for using the materiel to defend themselves.[/b]

Hmm.. you seem quite incapable of following a point without corrupting it.

Atrocities do not equal defence. I have never called for Israel not to defend itself. Then again it wouldnt surprise me if you saw genocide and defence as the same thing. Your that &#39;type&#39;.

Now.. you made this accusation

Originally posted by j2k4
He wishes, as most Palestinians do, that the Israelis were eliminated, genocide-style, and that the U.S. step aside so that this could be accomplished.

Then you changed it to this...

Originally posted by j2k4
You have, on many occasions, urged that the U.S. drop it&#39;s support for Israel and encourage them to "stand down", yes?

and now your merely repeating what I have already said as if it is a terrible thing to say&#33;

Originally posted by j2k4

Originally posted by EBP
How about if the USA threatened to remove it&#39;s support unless the Israelis use it for defence only?

Im afraid that does not "fit the bill" of calling for the genocide of Israelis.

You are an amazing individual j2k4..

You support the overthrow of democratic Gvts and the installation of dictators..

Originally posted by j2k4
I am well aware of our past actions regarding the overthrow of foreign leaders we deemed dangerous, or undesirable-so what?

You believe in guilty till proven guilty..

Originally posted by j2k4
We aren&#39;t overly concerned with the status of a bunch of Taliban/Al Qaeda terrorists at Guantanamo Bay, and we don&#39;t care who is questioning our handling of the situation there.

You have no problem with hypocrisy or double standards

Originally posted by j2k4
As to accusations of "double-standards", again; SO WHAT?

you support the genocide of Palestinian women and children

Originally posted by j2k4
EBP goes on and on about an Israeli bomb/missile going off in the midst of a block of "innocent" Palestinians, and demands an explanation/justification.

you believe "might is right"..

<!--QuoteBegin-j2k4@
YOU try telling the 800-pound gorilla it doesn&#39;t have the right[/quote]

And yet you still have the audacity to attempt to take the moral high ground&#33;

You epitomise everything that is wrong with US foreign policy.

<!--QuoteBegin-Billy_Dean
If only you&#39;d said that in the first place, you could have saved us the trouble of pointing it out to you. The fact is, you DON&#39;T care, and neither does your government, you are a law unto yourselves, and the rest of the world hates you for it.[/quote]

Give it up j2k4. Your credibility in this area has been shot to pieces by your own words.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by Billy_Dean@11 September 2003 - 08:25
Had the US and partners gone into Iraq to "kick this arsehole out", I would have been the first to congratulate them. but, in my opinion, doing the right thing, for the wrong reason, is still wrong. And, militarily, this was a cock-up, an invading armed force, and a liberating armed force, are two different cookies.

I still think we can sort all this out, but we have to do it together. The 280 pound gorrilla has to listen&#33;

Could you flesh this out?

What should have been done differently? What are you implying about our "goals" there? (BTW, for context http://www.klboard.ath.cx/index.php?showtopic=31003)

Old Saddam just used the fade into the population trick. Remember during war coverage there was discussion of the different republican guards. When we got to Bagdhad, they simply weren&#39;t there. It was decided that they didn&#39;t exist, just a paper army. Wrong, Saddam knew he had no chance head to head, so he dispersed his men into the population to work as a disruptive resistance force. His men are now attempting to sabotage efforts to restore normal life and establish a stable governing body. This is in hopes of frustrating the American people over a lack of progress and continued fatalities and causing them to demand withdrawl of the troops. This is especially effective now, as Bush&#39;s term is nearing its end. The future of Iraq will be the deciding political issue I believe. Will people be content to "stay the course". I hope not.

I cannot envision the United States wanting to take over Iraq (an invading army). The disruptive attacks of the resistance would never end and would constantly be re-inforced by neighboring countries. That is a no win situation.

I cannot envision the US leaving Iraq at the moment, as whomever fills the void will be anti-American and will likely be Saddam Hussein, himself. That is why it is so critical to find Hussein alive and turn him over to his own people. I think the resistance would fade as that fear of Saddam regaining power and exacting his revenge would be gone. I think fear of Saddam has a huge influence on the mentality of the Iraqi citizens.


As for Afghanistan and 9/11, I would interested to hear how you would have handled the affair to minimize innocent citizens. I would have to say that I strongly feel, in a case such as this, that not only the perpetrators but the government which supported them should be punished. Punished so overwhelmingly that host countries for motivated groups will think again before harbouring them.How many Afghans would have died if Bin Laden had attacked China? Well, how many people live in Afghanistan, that is your answer. So although many innocents died, I think an effort was made to restrict damage. I mean honestly, when the guilty melt in with the innocent, what distillation process can you use to separate the two. It simply does not exist.

My final assumption, as stated before, is that the Taliban would not have handed over the Alqueda to any outside court. I feel they would have used that as a stall tactic and the guilty would have disappeared into the hills. We saw this very thing happen on a small scale.


As with the attack, the retaliation would need to both symbolic and effective. I don&#39;t think a prolonged special ops invasion would have been practical, to hand pick out the rotten apples and save the innocent ones.


Billy, you have an interesting posting style. You either lash out or you discuss (as with ilw). Lashing out only detracts from the board, discussion allows people to appreciate different perspectives. If someone pisses you off, take the high road and ignore it. Just address the issues. I lead by example, as you well know considering you wished many more 9/11&#39;s upon me.

[Rat Faced]

Originally posted by clocker+11 September 2003 - 02:48--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker @ 11 September 2003 - 02:48)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by evilbagpuss@10 September 2003 - 20:40
<!--QuoteBegin-clocker

Thus, they enjoy the luxury of a more measured response.

Thus purposefully killing women and children is acceptable.

No.

To my knowledge Israel has never purposely targeted just women and children. There has always been a military component to their raids.

Which is more than can be said of the Palestinians. [/b][/quote]
Just one small point.


Israel practices Conscription for both Males and Females, and they are then Reservists after they leave the Military.

Therefore it can be argued that:

Every adult Israeli is a trained soldier ready to fight, and therefore as much of a "Military Target" as reservists in USA and UK.....albeit a "Soft Target".

[hobbes]

What a nice for someone with the motivation (and I do not feel that Ratfaced has said motivation) to distort murder into an acceptable military tactic.

I don&#39;t think this information has any constructive value. It is a quibble, a nit-pick and an extreme way to justify what we all know to be an unacceptable act of civilian terror.

Had you told me the Palestineans were conscripted, I would have reponded the same way. In fact, I wish you had, just to show that I don&#39;t think either side is "right". In fact, both are "wrong".