Overseeding worst then HNR ?

**stoi** · 06-20-2008, 02:57 PM

well i think BCG quality is top notch, we do have a 10 in the ratings here, so we must be doing something right.

what a stupid thing to say, overseeding would not be a problem if there were not so many leechers lol i hope you were joking with that one, i can never tell.

way bittorrent works.

5 gig torrent, 40 seeders dl the release from elsewhere and have 40 ratios on it (i have seen none uploaders with 400 ratios on 1 torrent before)

thats 40* 40 = 1600, so in turn thats 1600 leechers that cant, whatever they do get to a 1 ratio.

all of those will have to stay on the torrent, hoping the seed box users go away, and hope that 1600 new leechers jump on.

so overseeding does contribute to hit and running.

OK if a member limits his upload and just jumps off the torrent as soon as he has finished downloading it, then thats not the SB problem, and that to me is a proper hit and run, but this thread has escalated to anyone with a ratio of under 1 on every torrent is a hit and runner, which i do not agree with at all.

**respawn40** · 06-20-2008, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by stoi

Ok we will take the SP mod off and go back to P2L then, then the only one that is benefiting is me.

sorry but this thread is starting to do my head in.

its a viscious circle.

start off, 4 years ago, slow downloads but everyone could seed back to a decent ratio, even over 1 most of the time.

3 years ago, Seedboxes come on the scene.

1st of all Uploaders of scene axx had them, which is great, fine and bloody dandy if your an uploader, it is preferable that you have one, especially if your releasing scene straight after pre.

2 years ago, non scene uploaders started to get them, started jumping on torrents as soon as the uploader uploaded them, to get a huge ratio and fuck the poor sods with slow uploads, as long as my e-penis is huge, fuck them.

Great for fast downloads, shit for an equal ratio throughout the site, especially on closed communities (no new leechers that will want the stuff after 2 days).

Now members that would have never ever thought of getting a sb are getting one, to guess what, keep up with all the seedbox users.

soon we will have 95% of the members on seedboxes, and even if you have one, it will still be hard to keep a ratio. because even if you have a Seedbox, if 40 seeders are seeding 10 * the torrent each and there are only 400 leechers, then 400 of those are going to have ratios under 1 if you like it or not. doesnt matter what upload they have got.

and i am not talking about uplaoding at a snails pace through choice, i am talking about members getting bullied out of seeding but trying their best.

OK i love seedboxes, ive used one and thought it was cheating, but thats another story lol but you can have too many on a site, which is detrimental to the site as a whole imo

the trick is to find the right balance, fast downloads, but also a chance for the ones that either cant afford a seedbox, or just plain dont want one, a chance to stay a member. and P2L is not the answer, that means i am benefiting off your fast pipes, and exploiting the ones that dont have a fast upload, now is that right?

Stoi, I couldn't have said it better myself.

**grimms** · 06-20-2008, 06:15 PM

I agree with stoi it will phase everything out if you read the quoted timeline lol. You need balance.

**Polarbear** · 06-20-2008, 07:22 PM

why do you think so many trackers offer ratio benefits to their members? there's hardly one tracker nowadays that doesn't offer free leech, seeding boni, multiple upload count, etc.

ok, there's tl. they compensate it with a huge userbase.

look at the amount of scene trackers we have that all offer the same content. speed or the lack of seeders is not their problem. they all need more leechers and are desperately trying to get them.

overseeding is a vicious circle. first there will be lots of seedboxes and many people can't keep their ratio, because they can't seed back the files they download. consequence: they don't leech anymore or leech somewhere else and try to co-seed on the overseeded tracker.

of course this makes the problem even worse. result: less leechers again.

now comes the point.

the seedbox users realise that even with their expensive pipes they can't increase their ratio anymore for the simple fact that nobodys leeching.

seedbox users say bye bye. end of uploads, end of tracker, end of story.

thank god that even overseeded trackers like sct realised this problem and introduced benefits that make it easier for the majority of users to leech.

the classical ratio system without freeleech or any other benefits only works on trackers with huge userbases nowadays. it also makes sense on trackers that rely only on user uploads such as what, waffles or tc (and even they have freeleech). on those trackers you can always make your individual upload to improve your ratio.

we have an oversupply of content and speed when it comes to scene releases.

what some trackers don't understand until today is that the promotion only on upload is a major problem. admit it or not, many people only upload and buy seedboxes for promotion, reputation on the tracker and to get invites. the slogan on most trackers still is: download as little and upload as much as you can, then you're a good user and get promoted. this has got to change. download has to play a role in promotion criteria.

it's people that leech who keep sites alive. without them the seedboxes sellers would go bankrupt.

good news is there are trackers like ftn or fsc (bcg also afaik) who understood the problem. they do everything to make it more comfortable for the average member to use trackers what they are meant for: to download warez.

**waki** · 06-21-2008, 02:18 AM

Originally Posted by Polarbear

what some trackers don't understand until today is that the promotion only on upload is a major problem. admit it or not, many people only upload and buy seedboxes for promotion, reputation on the tracker and to get invites. the slogan on most trackers still is: download as little and upload as much as you can, then you're a good user and get promoted. this has got to change. download has to play a role in promotion criteria.

word. i totally agree with this. but in the other hand, u can't 'force' people to download. forexample: if u don't dl 10gb/mo u will be banned, etc. it would be the same situation... dl bytes (not movies, games because you don't need them) to keep your account alive. i know you're talking about promotions, but it's the same. it's not going to be better if someone dl a movie he don't need...

another the problem is, everyone have 10-20 accounts on various scene sites and ofcourse every site provides almost the same content. u won't gonna dl the same movie from XYZ and ASD too... it's a race, just like in real life. every tracker tries to make something special, get better pre, etc... so just like irl, the faster/stronger gonna win, and the others gonna dissapear.

Natural selection

**Skerven** · 06-22-2008, 01:07 AM

Originally Posted by Polarbear

look at the amount of scene trackers we have that all offer the same content. speed or the lack of seeders is not their problem. they all need more leechers and are desperately trying to get them.

"they" are the leechers. those leechers need downloaders. leechers are people with a ratio less than one. do not confuse the word leecher with the word downloader.
ever. again.

Originally Posted by Polarbear

overseeding is a vicious circle. first there will be lots of seedboxes and many people can't keep their ratio, because they can't seed back the files they download. consequence: they don't leech anymore or leech somewhere else and try to co-seed on the overseeded tracker.

if your claim that the only reason people get seedboxes is to improve their ratio as an end in itself, and not so they can download more data, then i suppose that would be a problem. i don't like that assumption.
if this is true, then i suppose ratio caps would be better than ... redistributing and giving away upload credit.
ew. i'd rather justly punish the seedboxers than unjustly reward the leechers! call it an anti-trust law.

Originally Posted by Polarbear

it's people that leech who keep sites alive. without them the seedboxes sellers would go bankrupt.

no, it's people who download. downloaders, not leechers. downloaders include other seedboxers. you do not call people with a ratio above 1.0 ... seeders, do you:

Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminology_of_BitTorrent

downloader:
A downloader is any peer that does not have the entire file and is downloading the file. This term is used in Bram Cohen's Python implementation, and lacks the negative connotation attributed to leech. Bram prefers downloader to leech because BitTorrent's tit-for-tat ensures downloaders also upload and thus should not be unfairly branded leech.
leech:
A leech is usually a peer who has a negative effect on the swarm by having a very poor share ratio - in other words, downloading much more than they upload. Most leeches are users on asymmetric internet connections and do not leave their BitTorrent client open to seed the file after their download has completed. However, some leeches intentionally avoid uploading by using modified clients or excessively limiting their upload speed. ~~The term leech, however, can be used simply to describe a peer - or any client that does not have 100% of the data.~~

yay, proper terminology!