Israel & Palestine

[evilbagpuss]

@ilw On the contrary I think j2k4 was quite serious, serious enough for the thread to be locked by a moderator at any rate. Although now he has been proved wrong I'm sure he will claim it was just a "bit of fun" and not malicious in any way shape of form.

Anyway.. back to the topic. I had a couple of questions in my last post.

Originally posted by EBP+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (EBP)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Conal Urquhart in Jerusalem


Since August 19, Israel&#39;s airforce has killed 12 Hamas members and four bystanders. Over the past two years Israel&#39;s "targeted assassinations" have killed dozens of bystanders by using bombs wieghing up to one tonne in densely populated areas of the Gaza Strip

Could someone explain, in really simple terms, why this is morally acceptable and why UK/US taxpayers money should go towards supporting it?

Apparently it is &#39;contrarian&#39; not to support this indiscriminate slaughter. If someone could also explain why this is so, I&#39;d really appreciate it.[/b][/quote]

I would love to hear an adequate answer to those 2 queries.

[evilbagpuss]

Originally posted by hobbes+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If you look through the words to the meaning, you will see that the thread was basically asking a mod to confirm or deny his assertation[/b]

hmm... I&#39;m afraid your going to have to spell it out for me hobbes. Where exactly did he ask a mod to deny or confirm his assertion? (At this point Im tempted to insult your spelling/grammar as you recently did to me but then I decide no I&#39;m not going to drop to that level.)

Which words are we meant to "look through" precisely?

Read the thread again, even after he&#39;s been proved wrong he&#39;s still referring to "Billy/EPB".

Originally posted by hobbes+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>True deception would have been to make this statement as a tactic to undermine your argument and credibility in a setting where there is no impartial body to confirm or deny this[/b]

He did make a statement. It was a tactic. You either believe he is totally innocent or he is malicious. Im absolutely astounded by your "impartial body" comment. In the context of a forum it truly is nonsensical.

<!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@
Anyway, need we bring up your past deception, again. [/quote]

Wtf? What deception? More bullshit accusations? I think so.

<!--QuoteBegin-hobbes
Given this history, it makes me wonder about your impartiality in this matter. Why you might have some use for portraying a mistake as an attempt at deception. Hmmm. Perhaps you are the one trying to deceive, again?[/quote]

What history? Mistake, deception?? What a load of rubbish.

This is how it is.

You are trying to make out that poor old j2k4 made a silly mistake and that his intentions were as pure as the driven snow. This is obviously not the case. The only person trying to deceive people here is you. Your posts are not motivated by fairness or reason as much as you attempt to make them seem that way.

This can be seen in your insinuation that I have deceived people. Of course.. you will abandon this ASAP because there is no basis to it. I will be forced to badger you for days to get any answer regarding these &#39;accusations&#39;.

Your transparent hobbes, and not half as clever as you would like to think. This is merely a case of "you guys" sticking together, so give up the "Im being Fair and Reasonable" act. Its not working.

As for why you were offended, of course, it was obvious. Sometimes I like to intentionally misunderstand as well, to show people how aggravating it can be. I am a little insulted that you felt to need to explain the obvious to me

Do you have an impartial body to verify that?

Seriously though, people need to say what they mean and mean what they say. I have had enough "games" for one day.

[ilw]

mate, you need to take a chill pill, this is a storm in a teacup if ever i saw one.

[evilbagpuss]

@ilw I am chilled B)

I am happy with the original j2k4 "issue". It shows his true colours.

What is pissing me off now is that hobbes is trying to twist things round in an Orwellian fashion whilst making some baseless accusations of his own. He is also doing this under a veneer of respectability in the same way that j2k4 used to operate.

Now I have to chase this one down as well.. tedious but necessary I&#39;m afraid.

It all detracts from the subject of Israeli atrocities though.. which is good for certain individuals.. feel free to answer my questions.. I will be happy to continue on with the topic regardless of the two faced &#39;tactics&#39; of some of my &#39;colleagues&#39;.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by evilbagpuss@26 September 2003 - 18:55
(At this point Im tempted to insult your spelling/grammar as you recently did to me but then I decide no I&#39;m not going to drop to that level.)


He did make a statement. It was a tactic. You either believe he is totally innocent or he is malicious. Im absolutely astounded by your "impartial body" comment. In the context of a forum it truly is nonsensical.

This is how it is.

Your posts are not motivated by fairness or reason as much as you attempt to make them seem that way.

Your transparent hobbes, and not half as clever as you would like to think. This is merely a case of "you guys" sticking together, so give up the "Im being Fair and Reasonable" act. Its not working.

Seriously though, people need to say what they mean and mean what they say. I have had enough "games" for one day.

The impartial observer is our moderating team. Sure they may not be impartial as individuals, but in a case of checking IP&#39;s they can pretty much be. They were able to confirm that EBP and Billy Dean are not the same person.

If the forum were unmoderated, then we would all be left to speculate. J2&#39;s assertion could either be wrong, right, or he could be attempting to deceive.

As a tactic, deception is pointless, because the mods can check this, and they did. And he knew they would.

I see neither malice nor innocence, I see a person who tried to put some data together and made a mistake. I have actually done the same myself in thinking that a certain banned member was posting under another name. You win some, you lose some.



Sorry if I corrected a typo- though I don&#39;t recall doing so, perhaps that was under my other persona JPaul .



I think that these two links will remind you of what I meant by your prior deception. I will just post the links for brevity sake. I think the first post also covers my philosophy on the purpose of the forum. The second post has a link which further bears out my motivations (It is only 1 sentence).

I will tell you that I am often wrong, but I always attempt to be reasonable and fair, otherwise I would be wasting my time here. I do not subscribe to the "buddy" system, but in this area (Israel/Palestine issue) perhaps J2 and I have common ground. We do disagree and debate on other subjects, but respectfully as we appreciate the honesty of the others opinions. If you were to look back at my less than polite entry into this forum (sorry again Skweeky), you will see that J2 and I locked horns early.

http://www.klboard.ath.cx/index.php?act=ST...ndpost&p=327719
http://www.klboard.ath.cx/index.php?act=ST...ndpost&p=328031

I will not discuss this above topic again, I will let any interested member read that thread (and you will need to read much more than those links as my role in that thread was minor) and decide for himself if you portrayed yourself honestly.

I agree with your last line, if it still is, your post seems to be growing as I try to repond. I will gladly endeavor to discuss topics to find a solution and not to mindlessly defend point of view. Discussions do not involve name calling or insults to the others intelligence.


Edit: added a clarification

[evilbagpuss]

I see, so my "deception" is being pro-Palestinian because I referred to "laughing Israelis".

Not very convincing hobbes.

I have seen videos of laughing Israelis having their picture taken by a colleague whilst they stand over the body of a dead Palestinian.

I&#39;m afraid "laughing Israelis" is reality not bias.

My whole argument in relation to this issue is that Israeli atrocities have been supported by the West and largely hidden from the taxpayers who fund it. The fact that this creates more terrorism and provides support for extremists shouldnt be such a hard concept for people to grasp.

If this is a "biased" viewpoint.. then we seem to have 2 different definitions of what the word biased means. If that is pro-Palestinian... we need a new dictionary.

So.. deception? I think not.

Lets think about this though. I mention "laughing Israelis" and everyone goes absolutely mad with rage.

Israel regularly drops 1 tonne bombs on crowded civilian areas and people such as yourself, j2k4 and clocker shrug their shoulders and say "so what"?

Shock+Awe confidently states that Islam is "evil from its very inception" and no one bats an eyelid.

Israel bulldozes the family homes of suicide bombers and you support and defend it.

Yet.. I am biased?? I am deceptive?? What an insane state of affairs... Anyone who supports these actions yet claims to be anything other than a psychopath is deceptive in the extreme.

For example...

Originally posted by j2k4
EBP goes on and on about an Israeli bomb/missile going off in the midst of a block of "innocent" Palestinians, and demands an explanation/justification.

hmm what does this mean I wonder... I take it to mean there is no such thing as an innocent Palestinian (observe the &#39;clever&#39; use of quote marks) but do you think j2k4 would actually say it outright? Of course not.

Thats what I call deception. It was also the catalyst for j2k4&#39;s innocent "mistake" and so we come full circle...

[hobbes]

"I am pro-people."-EBP


In the thread you sold yourself as unbiased and for the "people". It later was revealed that you had a very strong bias.

You misrepresented yourself as the impartial observer with no bias. You used this to try and sell the implied story that "any impartial observer would come to this conclusion". As the discussion progressed your impartial observer mask fell away and your true self stepped forward.

My response:

"Wow, full blown overt bias, should have been there from post one. Keeps credibility if you post your stance. You claimed to be unbiased and have lied.

There is nothing wrong with being pro-palestinean, in fact, I welcome the input of both sides. The problem stems from the inflexibility of religion, and when there is mortal conflict, compromise/resolution may not be possible"


That is what I am talking about.



Please continue to chase me down as I need the exercise I&#39;m going for a run, quite literally, I will pretend that you are on my heels and gaining&#33; Don&#39;t forget to stretch out.

[Rat Faced]

Cool it guys......

EBP:

You know that this is the www....you are posting and only the MODs see your IP and can do the whois...just because you SAY you are from somewhere, does not necessarily mean you are.

If members are using Proxies, then they can appear to be posting from different parts of the globe etc, even for our whois.

I happen to know your ISP is a UK one, and isnt using Proxies....so i know you are posting from the UK.

I know that Billy is posting via Australia...however I havent checked to see if he IS in Australia (I assume Bender has )

I hope you see the point im trying to make.....ilw is right, this is a storm in a teacup. As ultimately, someone that knows IT can fake who they are and where they are.

In this instance; j2k4 is incorrect.

At another time, we may not be able to verify that such an assertion is incorrect.

[Billy_Dean]

Well I&#39;ve just read back through those threads Hobbes, I saw EPB and RF trying to discuss openly, and Clocko sticking to his stated bias.

Whilst your posts were certainly more even, you still seem to defend your countymen as a matter of habit. In this case, you attack EBP&#39;s "bias" whilst defending Clocko&#39;s.

One disturbing aspect of this and the other Israel&#092;Palestine thread, is the reluctance of the pro-Israel camp to answer all the questions put to them. The usual way of circumventing this is to launch into personal attacks.

I&#39;ll state my bias here, again, - I am pro Palestinian. This does not mean I agree with everything that happens from the Palestinian side, it means that I believe the Palestinians are getting a very raw deal. Holding that view, I also believe that the two main antagonists in this conflict are Israel and the US, not Hamas, or the PLO, or any other Palestinian organisation.

The key to peace is land, Israel holds the land, you tell me where the solution lies.

[hobbes]

Well put, whether I agree with you on a topic or not is irrelevant. When we enter a discussion, it is useful to indicate our relationship to the situation so people can get a feel for what might affect our perception of a situation. From this point the discussion can move forward.

In this case, an objective discussion can only begin when we know:
1) Are you pro-palestinean
2) Are you pro-Israeli
3) Are you simply antisemitic (meaning that you could care less about Palestine, you just want to bad things to come to the Jews).
4) Do you have anger toward American foreign policy, making you more anti-Israel rather than truly pro-palestinean. You pretend you are pro-palestinean to hide your true agenda.

I personally find emotive threads suspect and just an attempt at manipulation. You can make your point without trying to elicit "stock response".



Do I really attack EBP&#39;s bias?

"There is nothing wrong with being pro-palestinean, in fact, I welcome the input of both sides. The problem stems from the inflexibility of religion, and when there is mortal conflict, compromise/resolution may not be possible"

The attack was on his misrepresentation of himself and not on his actual bias.


As for Clocko:

Clocker:

"I believe that the "issues at hand" as defined by the title of this topic are "Palestine or Israel".

I am pro-Israel.

You? "


--------------------
&nbsp;
evilbagpuss Posted: 18 June 2003 - 15:27

I am pro-people."

(This was the second time he asked- Justice was the first reply)

So Clocker, whether you agree with him or not, came out into the open whilst EBP remained crouched in the bushes. How can you have a frank discussion if you opponent is rustling about in the bushes and you can&#39;t see him? Clocker stated his position, EBP concealed his.



As for the current posts, I was merely relaying the other side of the coin to the forum. EBP claims that J2 was being malicious and deceptive, I wanted to show that his intention was to be neither, he made a mistake.

The Israel/Palestine issue has been debated on 2 threads for enough pages to indicate that additional discussion will not bring closure to this issue. These threads and their lack of resolution sadly parallel reality. But that issue has no bearing on this recent exchange.


As for defending my countrymen, are you not from the UK (although living in Australia currently) just like EBP? Could you be doing the same? Or are we to find that people of similar upbringing hold similar viewpoints?



PS: I notice that you have joined ShockandAwe in saluting Pink Floyd. I always knew you two were tight friends&#33;