A moral too far ?

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Originally Posted by bigboab

Surely if someone lobby's for something I am against, then I am entitled to lobby with a case against what they are lobbying for. Once a law has been passed then everyone has to obey that law or face the consequences. Therefore the time to complain is before it reaches the deicision making.
It is too late to say everyone should obey the law, but it's OK for me to smoke pot. If that analogy fits the situation. :)

@ Vidcc please refrain from using other threads to try and prove that members sometimes forget what they said a few days ago. This is against the rules of 'This forum'. I will have you excommunicated. :ph34r:

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Exactly the point, everyone is allowed to lobby on any subject they want. Obviously anyone else is allowed to lobby against it :blink: To say that is wrong to try to influence the law to reflect your views is nonsense and a denial of freedom of expression. Indeed for our friends from the USA is that right not actually part of their Constitution, I have always taken it to be so.

As you say, when the law is enacted everyone is obliged to follow it. However people are still entitled to lobby and peacefully protest to have it changed. Again freedom of expression.

Re the other matter, that would have been the old freedom of expression thing again. One person expressing an opinion and another expressing something different.

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Originally Posted by vidcc

I said there are unjust laws... if you wish to smoke weed in your home you should be allowed to.... you should not be allowed to smoke it in a public place where others can breathe your smoke and you should not be allowed to "drag and drive"... If you are a druggie and you commit a crime because you are high then the fact that you were high and didn't know what you were doing is no defence.

I see no harm in legalising prostitution, IF it would get it off the streets and under control so we don't have enforced prostitution (there is a slave trade in existence) or the "pimp" issue. Also regulation could reduce the health risks. Brothels should come under zoning laws so you don't have men going in and out of the "house next door"... there are many reasons why legalisation is justified... but it would need policing... and frankly I don't think we could stop "rouges" or underage walking the streets...that should always be illegal.

Neither of these things I agree with from a personal viewpoint. I am anti drug from a health point of view but if you want to harm yourself fine, as long as you harm nobody else. I have never nor would I ever use a prostitute. But it won't affect me if you did....so given the criteria above (not a total package) then smoke and screw away.

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Originally Posted by Busyman

On the real, you have a problem with folks lobbying for laws that you disagree with.

That's what this comes down to. :dry:

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No shit..... you really must be high tonight to be able to figure that out.... seeing as I only said it a gazillionquadbillion times....

No you haven't. You said you have a problem with people forcing their moral values upon others. Yet you are a person and would like to force your moral values upon others. :blink:

I see no difference to objecting to any attempt at making an unjust law that infringes personal freedom whatever the level the attempt is. I see no difference between my objection to them trying to make the law and lobbying against them to stop the succeeding.

Now wtf? That's what everyone in this damn thread has been saying. Oh and now YOU say it. :lol: :lol: ....and you call me high? You deserve the NO SHIT award. :trophy: As I said, great post for the article. Other than that, moral values, even personal ones, make up most of our law.

Edit: BTW both you and Jpaul told the canuk he shouldn't be talking about dog welfare when there is a homeless person...... Are you both anti freespeech and anti freedom of expression?

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The dog thingie was in relation to a homeless person. Canuk can talk about what he wants.

I was just at Universoul Circus this past weekend and the PETA folks were out in full force. They yelled, "Human and animal slavery is wrong". I then said, "Why focus on the people aspect first? You are investing massive amounts of energy into......animal slavery."

Me and JP just have a different school of thought on that matter is all. When an animal and human are side-by-side we have a different priority as to which one's important.
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You remarked about being naked in the front yard. One could argue that the person is on their property and is not harming anyone (I guess unless they look like :shit: ). Why can't women walk around topless when men can?
You being an atheist, I get where you are coming from....if it doesn't infringe on others then there is no problem.

What about polygamy?
Euthanasia?
Drinking age?
Age of consentual sex?
What age is a minor?

The mere fact that you want to regulate prostitution comes from your personal moral values. If person A wants to pay to fuck person B in their home, what does government have to with it? What makes it special versus selling an old tire? What constitutes underage for a prostitute?

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Originally Posted by Busyman

What makes it special versus selling an old tire?

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Nothing really, its about the same size. Or so I am led to believe.:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Busyman

What makes it special versus selling an old tire?

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Nothing really.
Assuming that mounting and balancing are included, of course.

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Originally Posted by clocker

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Originally Posted by Busyman

What makes it special versus selling an old tire?

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Nothing really.
Assuming that mounting and balancing are included, of course.

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:glag:

http://www.dvdfever.co.uk/reviews/monty1a.jpg
nudge,nudge,wink,wink....

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What about polygamy?
Euthanasia?
Drinking age?
Age of consentual sex?
What age is a minor?

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Why not? One is more than enough usually though ;)

Why Not? Why do we put animals down, but make humans suffer?

This is more than one question. You can drink at 5 years old in UK, but cant buy until 18.. whats the question?

This one doesnt work anywhere, i think that all these type of laws need to be looked at. A 17 year old sleeping with his 15 year old GF is a different thing than a 39 year old having a one night stand with a 15 year old.

That is linked to the above, and again.. doesnt work. When a girl has decided she will open her legs, there is no "Law" that is gonna stop her, and no shortage of volunteers for the offer. Education and peer pressure would make a better barrier than the Law ever will.

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Originally Posted by Busyman

No you haven't. You said you have a problem with people forcing their moral values upon others. Yet you are a person and would like to force your moral values upon others. :blink:
No i am not because my belief in freedom of expression is stronger than my dislike of their attempt to force me to follow their bible code. Again read what i say not what jpaul says i say


Now wtf? That's what everyone in this damn thread has been saying. Oh and now YOU say it. :lol: :lol: ....and you call me high? You deserve the NO SHIT award. :trophy: As I said, great post for the article. Other than that, moral values, even personal ones, make up most of our law.

Why lobby against them? to stop something you disagree with....I have said from the start..you have the right..I have the right to oppose. you lobby against things you don't like...I don't like laws that infringe on my personal freedoms so I said I would stand in their way. I said I don't like people trying to force me to live by their values, so of course I don't LIKE them lobbying for such laws..... anyone that says they like people lobbying for laws they disagree with is a liar. That doesn't mean they are against freedom of expression. It means they believe in a principle that is greater than things they dislike.

You don't like the KKK making racists speeches at their meetings, but you believe in freedom of speech and expression (don't you?)

freedom of expression isn't "absolute" in reality. The KKK can make their speeches in a private rally in a barn in Alabama, they cannot do it in the streets of Harlem, because it would cause a riot and infringe on the freedoms of others..


The dog thingie was in relation to a homeless person. Canuk can talk about what he wants.
Me and JP just have a different school of thought on that matter is all. When an animal and human are side-by-side we have a different priority as to which one's important.

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Originally Posted by jpaul

FFS is this a wind up.

You see a homeless person and you're biggest concern is whether the dog is properly looked after.

Stop feckin' anthropomorphizing, it's a dog. It needs food, water and exercise. If it doesn't get the proper food, tough. It's unlikely that the homeless person gets a proper diet either. Loads of animals don't get a proper diet. Loads of humans die every day from starvation, or disease.

In fact, here's an idea, let him eat the dog. Good meal for him and the dog out of it's misery.

Pish like this really gets my goat.

Person > Dog.

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Your post agreed with jpaul...doesn't sound like you are saying he can "talk about what he wants" to me
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You remarked about being naked in the front yard. One could argue that the person is on their property and is not harming anyone (I guess unless they look like :shit:). Why can't women walk around topless when men can?
You being an atheist, I get where you are coming from....if it doesn't infringe on others then there is no problem.

What about polygamy?
Euthanasia?
Drinking age?
Age of consentual sex?
What age is a minor?
Do we have to go over EVERY SINGLE CASE YOU CAN THINK OF????
The mere fact that you want to regulate prostitution comes from your personal moral values. If person A wants to pay to fuck person B in their home, what does government have to with it? What makes it special versus selling an old tire? What constitutes underage for a prostitute?

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I want to stop the parts that infringe on others. prostitution is a tricky one because it has so many areas that are not "personal". This is where the "as long as it affects nobody else" come in.

Marry as many women as you want, as long as you can afford it. Assisted suicide....if the safety nets are there to prevent murder...go for it.

It is all about personal moral values... Values on how one leads one's own life

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Originally Posted by Rat Faced

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What about polygamy?
Euthanasia?
Drinking age?
Age of consentual sex?
What age is a minor?

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Why not? One is more than enough usually though ;)

Why Not? Why do we put animals down, but make humans suffer?

This is more than one question. You can drink at 5 years old in UK, but cant buy until 18.. whats the question?

This one doesnt work anywhere, i think that all these type of laws need to be looked at. A 17 year old sleeping with his 15 year old GF is a different thing than a 39 year old having a one night stand with a 15 year old.

That is linked to the above, and again.. doesnt work. When a girl has decided she will open her legs, there is no "Law" that is gonna stop her, and no shortage of volunteers for the offer. Education and peer pressure would make a better barrier than the Law ever will.

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Ahh but if a 30 year-old fucks a 16 year-old consensually, it's against the law. Why?

An 18 year-old is deemed an adult (in the US) yet can't drink alcohol. Why?

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Originally Posted by vidcc

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Originally Posted by Busyman

No you haven't. You said you have a problem with people forcing their moral values upon others. Yet you are a person and would like to force your moral values upon others. :blink:
No i am not because my belief in freedom of expression is stronger than my dislike of their attempt to force me to follow their bible code. Again read what i say not what jpaul says i say


Now wtf? That's what everyone in this damn thread has been saying. Oh and now YOU say it. :lol: :lol: ....and you call me high? You deserve the NO SHIT award. :trophy: As I said, great post for the article. Other than that, moral values, even personal ones, make up most of our law.

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Originally Posted by vidcc

I am denying them the right to force others to comply to their values,

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Hmmm but values make up our laws. :blink:

A person in their own front yard may just be sitting in a chair naked and can be seen from the street. Why is this illegal?
You seem to agree with this nudity "as long there is a high fence."

Marriage itself comes from moral values.
So does cursing in public.

Why lobby against them? to stop something you disagree with....I have said from the start..you have the right..I have the right to oppose. you lobby against things you don't like...I don't like laws that infringe on my personal freedoms so I said I would stand in their way. I said I don't like people trying to force me to live by their values, so of course I don't LIKE them lobbying for such laws..... anyone that says they like people lobbying for laws they disagree with is a liar. That doesn't mean they are against freedom of expression. It means they believe in a principle that is greater than things they dislike.

You don't like the KKK making racists speeches at their meetings, but you believe in freedom of speech and expression (don't you?)

freedom of expression isn't "absolute" in reality. The KKK can make their speeches in a private rally in a barn in Alabama, they cannot do it in the streets of Harlem, because it would cause a riot and infringe on the freedoms of others..


The dog thingie was in relation to a homeless person. Canuk can talk about what he wants.
Me and JP just have a different school of thought on that matter is all. When an animal and human are side-by-side we have a different priority as to which one's important.



Your post agreed with jpaul...doesn't sound like you are saying he can "talk about what he wants" to me
Yes I did agree with JP. I didn't say he can or can't talk about anthropomorphizing. I wished the PETA folks would have decided to go home instead wasting their time in front of the circus but I wouldn't have asked or wished the cops would haul them away.
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You remarked about being naked in the front yard. One could argue that the person is on their property and is not harming anyone (I guess unless they look like :shit:). Why can't women walk around topless when men can?
You being an atheist, I get where you are coming from....if it doesn't infringe on others then there is no problem.

What about polygamy?
Euthanasia?
Drinking age?
Age of consentual sex?
What age is a minor?
Do we have to go over EVERY SINGLE CASE YOU CAN THINK OF????
The mere fact that you want to regulate prostitution comes from your personal moral values. If person A wants to pay to fuck person B in their home, what does government have to with it? What makes it special versus selling an old tire? What constitutes underage for a prostitute?

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I want to stop the parts that infringe on others. prostitution is a tricky one because it has so many areas that are not "personal". This is where the "as long as it affects nobody else" come in.

Marry as many women as you want, as long as you can afford it. Assisted suicide....if the safety nets are there to prevent murder...go for it.

It is all about personal moral values... Values on how one leads one's own life

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Originally Posted by vidcc

I am denying them the right to force others to comply to their values,

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Hmmm but values make up our laws. :blink:

A person in their own front yard may just be sitting in a chair naked and can be seen from the street. Why is this illegal?
You seem to agree with this nudity "as long there is a high fence."

Marriage itself comes from moral values.
So does cursing in public.