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Re: What Did They Die For?
When the US went into to Afganistan, the US military basicly told the local leaders that we would pay cash for every terrorist that they turned in. We had no way of defining what was a terrorist, so if the guy turning him in claimed he was a terrorist, we sent him to cuba. Now put your self in the shoes of one of the local leaders that is sick and tired of dealing opposition, bumbs on the street, ect. Here is the perfect method of dealing with these problems, and you get paid for it as well. As a result, we have alcoholic "terrorists" in guantanamo bay, which makes no sense, considering that the taliban and al qaeda are comprised of hard line muslims that feel that alcohol consumption is a sin.
While I beleve that "known terrorists" should get no help, we first have to know which prisoners are "known terrorists"
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Re: What Did They Die For?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
matt526
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SnnY
They've killed over 3000 terrorists...in Iraq? :blink:
Were these terrorists actually terrorists before Iraq was invaded? Were they bombing the US and that, I mean?
With this logic we should wait and let them attack us first, then we can attack them.
Wow that’s smart. As much we don’t want to be in Iraq being there is a preemptive move that is doing a lot to keep the USA and other countries safe.
Also I don’t care when or where the terrorist came from; a terrorist is a terrorist and deserves to die.
What logic are you talking about? The logic where we make folks angry that we attacked Iraq, they fight us, and it's a good thing?
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Re: What Did They Die For?
If we left Iraq, presumably the insurgents, or terrorists-for-hire, or whatever you wish to call them, from within or without the country, would go home and...what?
Farm?
Do you suppose they desire peace? :whistling
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Re: What Did They Die For?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
If we left Iraq, presumably the insurgents, or terrorists-for-hire, or whatever you wish to call them, from within or without the country, would go home and...what?
Farm?
Do you suppose they desire peace? :whistling
Not our problem. There is a cut-off point.
The folks in Darfur desire peace too....they just don't have shit we want.
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Re: What Did They Die For?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
If we left Iraq, presumably the insurgents, or terrorists-for-hire, or whatever you wish to call them, from within or without the country, would go home and...what?
Farm?
Do you suppose they desire peace? :whistling
Unfortunately that's the quandry that is the result of Bush and company's decision to attack Iraq in the first place, followed by Rumsfield's poor planning for the attack.
The question comes down to are we making progress in slowing the insergency, or is the US presence enraging more people and creating a bigger problem?
Last I heard, we were losing more troops per week than ever before.
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Re: What Did They Die For?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
If we left Iraq, presumably the insurgents, or terrorists-for-hire, or whatever you wish to call them, from within or without the country, would go home and...what?
Farm?
Do you suppose they desire peace? :whistling
Granted, some of them are foreigners out to make trouble (who wouldn't have been there in the first place, had they not come to "help"), and some of them are probably criminals, since that's something war can attract...but, a fair share of them (religious nutters or not), those "militants" who get recruited at mosques and that, would probably not be attacking anyone, if someone hadn't come and attacked their native soil, and so forth.
So yes, a fair lot of them would probably prefer some peace and quiet, if they knew their country wasn't occupied by people they percieved as hostile to them and their way of life.
As it is, more of them are probably recruited every day, all the people doing the recruiting need do is point out what's happening around them :pinch:
And sticking in there and staying is probably not the best way of convincing them one's intentions are pure :dabs:
Like I asked before...if the roles were reversed, if you were the one whose country was invaded and occupied by people with different views and a different notion about how your country ought to be run...would fighting that make you an insurgent, a terrorist, or a freedom fighter?
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Re: What Did They Die For?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tempestv
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
If we left Iraq, presumably the insurgents, or terrorists-for-hire, or whatever you wish to call them, from within or without the country, would go home and...what?
Farm?
Do you suppose they desire peace? :whistling
Unfortunately that's the quandry that is the result of Bush and company's decision to attack Iraq in the first place, followed by Rumsfield's poor planning for the attack.
The question comes down to are we making progress in slowing the insergency, or is the US presence enraging more people and creating a bigger problem?
One must realize too that even to many Americans, Bush's attack of Iraq looked suspect so wtf do you think many Iraqis thought?
Hey lets attack Cuba too. Castro is oppressive and stuff. The other Cubans will welcome us.
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Re: What Did They Die For?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SnnY
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
If we left Iraq, presumably the insurgents, or terrorists-for-hire, or whatever you wish to call them, from within or without the country, would go home and...what?
Farm?
Do you suppose they desire peace? :whistling
Granted, some of them are foreigners out to make trouble (who wouldn't have been there in the first place, had they not come to "help"), and some of them are probably criminals, since that's something war can attract...but, a fair share of them (religious nutters or not), those "militants" who get recruited at mosques and that, would probably not be attacking anyone, if someone hadn't come and attacked their native soil, and so forth.
So yes, a fair lot of them would probably prefer some peace and quiet, if they knew their country wasn't occupied by people they percieved as hostile to them and their way of life.
As it is, more of them are probably recruited every day, all the people doing the recruiting need do is point out what's happening around them :pinch:
And sticking in there and staying is probably not the best way of convincing them one's intentions are pure :dabs:
Like I asked before...if the roles were reversed, if you were the one whose country was invaded and occupied by people with different views and a different notion about how your country ought to be run...would fighting that make you an insurgent, a terrorist, or a freedom fighter?
Yeah those fucking Wolverines were terrorists. Cuba and Russia were trying to help us.:mellow:
After finding out some American soldier shot (accidental or not) your 7 year-old son or a bomb exploding on your way to the mosque killing 30 people, you'll be ready to bring things back to the way they were.
It's pretty bad when you create a bee's nest.
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Re: What Did They Die For?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SnnY
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
If we left Iraq, presumably the insurgents, or terrorists-for-hire, or whatever you wish to call them, from within or without the country, would go home and...what?
Farm?
Do you suppose they desire peace? :whistling
Granted, some of them are foreigners out to make trouble (who wouldn't have been there in the first place, had they not come to "help"), and some of them are probably criminals, since that's something war can attract...but, a fair share of them (religious nutters or not), those "militants" who get recruited at mosques and that, would probably not be attacking anyone, if someone hadn't come and attacked their native soil, and so forth.
So yes, a fair lot of them would probably prefer some peace and quiet, if they knew their country wasn't occupied by people they percieved as hostile to them and their way of life.
As it is, more of them are probably recruited every day, all the people doing the recruiting need do is point out what's happening around them :pinch:
And sticking in there and staying is probably not the best way of convincing them one's intentions are pure :dabs:
Like I asked before...if the roles were reversed, if you were the one whose country was invaded and occupied by people with different views and a different notion about how your country ought to be run...would fighting that make you an insurgent, a terrorist, or a freedom fighter?
Comprehensively unresponsive, SnnY.
Most of the border-crossers and other rabble-rousers are Jihad-unto-death types, inculcated at the mosques to hate America, Israel, and the West in general, conditioned unconditionally, per "Allah's" dictate.
Do you suppose they'll go all docile and lovey-dovey if we leave.
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Re: What Did They Die For?
The Iraq War - America's Auto Theft Bait Car :blink:
The Iraq War - America's Roach Motel
Who's the bait? Coalition soldiers, of course.
Maybe some Dems could use that in the run up to the elections.
"Bush wants to use our strong military as bait for the next 7 or so years."
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Re: What Did They Die For?
It's only 3000 soldiers.
Seriously, and I say that not out of ignorance and spamming urges but the death tolls everyday in the world wars were higher.
I've wanked more times in a day than that:dabs:
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Re: What Did They Die For?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SnnY
Granted, some of them are foreigners out to make trouble (who wouldn't have been there in the first place, had they not come to "help"), and some of them are probably criminals, since that's something war can attract...but, a fair share of them (religious nutters or not), those "militants" who get recruited at mosques and that, would probably not be attacking anyone, if someone hadn't come and attacked their native soil, and so forth.
So yes, a fair lot of them would probably prefer some peace and quiet, if they knew their country wasn't occupied by people they percieved as hostile to them and their way of life.
As it is, more of them are probably recruited every day, all the people doing the recruiting need do is point out what's happening around them :pinch:
And sticking in there and staying is probably not the best way of convincing them one's intentions are pure :dabs:
Like I asked before...if the roles were reversed, if you were the one whose country was invaded and occupied by people with different views and a different notion about how your country ought to be run...would fighting that make you an insurgent, a terrorist, or a freedom fighter?
Comprehensively unresponsive, SnnY.
Most of the border-crossers and other rabble-rousers are Jihad-unto-death types, inculcated at the mosques to hate America, Israel, and the West in general, conditioned unconditionally, per "Allah's" dictate.
Do you suppose they'll go all docile and lovey-dovey if we leave.
O rly. How come they weren't all attacking Americans before you got there then?
According to papers such as the Washington Post (apparently its editorials range from liberal to moderate, tho', so you'll prolly have something to say about that :rolleyes: )...the bulk of the insurgent army is believed to be something like:
Quote:
The vast majority of insurgents, probably more than 90 percent, are believed to be Iraqis from the Sunni minority group that largely ruled the country before the fall of Saddam Hussein.
...
Now, the last 10% (like parts of the native 90%) may be more or less on the terrorist track, but would they be there if they didn't have american targets, and would they have the same support if you removed the common enemy the "insurgents" fight?
I daresay there'd be a whole lot more trouble if they all (the full 100%) wanted YOU dead, and I also have to wonder what they are all doing in Iraq, if they all really want to hurt the USA. It seems a roundabout way of getting to your nation, fighting where they can't get to the majority of your population, and hardly any civilians at all.
Furthermore, one has to wonder how many of them now view the USA as their great enemy, exactly because they were invaded by the US.
And no, you didn't answer my question.
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Re: What Did They Die For?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SnnY
Like I asked before...if the roles were reversed, if you were the one whose country was invaded and occupied by people with different views and a different notion about how your country ought to be run...would fighting that make you an insurgent, a terrorist, or a freedom fighter?
Alright, let's start again.
To answer your question strictly on it's merits, I'd say that would make me a freedom fighter.
Now then:
Strictly on the merits, what percentage of the malcontents do you suppose fit that precise definition?
Not a religious sympathizer from across some border, but a native Iraqi, unaffiliated with Al Qaeda or any other regional terrorist groups, but a true native Iraqi, even ex-military.
As a side note, if we were even looser with our discretion, we could arm all the homesick ex-pat Iraqis in the metro Detroit area, send them home, and have them clean the whole country out.
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Re: What Did They Die For?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
As a side note, if we were even looser with our discretion, we could arm all the homesick ex-pat Iraqis in the metro Detroit area, send them home, and have them clean the whole country out.
Good idea J2 but it would not work. Kennedy/Eisenhower tried that with The Bay Of Pigs in cuba.:)
Just in case. Kennedy used ex Cubans, not ex Iraqis.
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Re: What Did They Die For?
Part of the difficulty in Iraq is the fact that there is not one insurgency but about 2 dozen.
There are Kurds who want an independent Kurdish state and who are inherently suspicious of both the Turks and the Arabs.
There are several Shia militias (not all of which are on speaking terms) many who have operatives in the military and the police (forming death squads to take out rivals).
There are Sunni insurgents who are ex Iraqi Ba'athists and would like a return to the brutal certainty of Saddam.
There are Sunni's who are radical Muslims - some Iraqi but also many AQ imports.
There are criminal gangs and black marketeers who kidnap, heist and generally scam everything going.
They all dislike each other and are killing each other at a rate of one every few minutes 24/7 365. The majority of the above are in fact Iraqi.
Then there are the Coalition troops. They are supposed to help keep this lot from killing each other whilst at the same time try to prevent the scams. The AQ Sunnis and some Iranian backed Shias sit in wait to take pot shots at the Coalition forces whenever they come out of barracks to attempt to enforce law on behalf of the iraqi Government (half of which is in cahoots with one of the above).
The more law and order fails the worse it gets and the easier it becomes for AQ types to wander in and out and plot. The Iraqis meanwhile are in a cycle of revenge and bloodlust.
I described the operation a few years ago as a folly - I have not been minded to change my position on what I have seen so far. However, we are well and truly painted into our corner. It is going to cost a lot more lives and money before we get out.
:ermm: Sorry to be so cheerful.
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Re: What Did They Die For?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Biggles
Part of the difficulty in Iraq is the fact that there is not one insurgency but about 2 dozen.
There are Kurds who want an independent Kurdish state and who are inherently suspicious of both the Turks and the Arabs.
There are several Shia militias (not all of which are on speaking terms) many who have operatives in the military and the police (forming death squads to take out rivals).
There are Sunni insurgents who are ex Iraqi Ba'athists and would like a return to the brutal certainty of Saddam.
There are Sunni's who are radical Muslims - some Iraqi but also many AQ imports.
There are criminal gangs and black marketeers who kidnap, heist and generally scam everything going.
They all dislike each other and are killing each other at a rate of one every few minutes 24/7 365. The majority of the above are in fact Iraqi.
Then there are the Coalition troops. They are supposed to help keep this lot from killing each other whilst at the same time try to prevent the scams. The AQ Sunnis and some Iranian backed Shias sit in wait to take pot shots at the Coalition forces whenever they come out of barracks to attempt to enforce law on behalf of the iraqi Government (half of which is in cahoots with one of the above).
The more law and order fails the worse it gets and the easier it becomes for AQ types to wander in and out and plot. The Iraqis meanwhile are in a cycle of revenge and bloodlust.
I described the operation a few years ago as a folly - I have not been minded to change my position on what I have seen so far. However, we are well and truly painted into our corner. It is going to cost a lot more lives and money before we get out.
:ermm: Sorry to be so cheerful.
Well enough put, and I think that is exactly why things are at a low ebb in Iraq.
The coalition is but one of about two dozen distinct fighting factions involved, not to mention the terrorists-in fact, I don't know if this even has the potential to become a proper civil war precisely for that reason: No one faction is strong enough to carry the day.
It's like their national elections were, ffs...several hundred candidates, all with dissimilar loyalties/pedigrees.
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Re: What Did They Die For?
ps. They are still dieing for "it".
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Re: What Did They Die For?
our youngmen/women died for OIL, because they were told to
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Re: What Did They Die For?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Seedler
It's only 3000 soldiers.
Seriously, and I say that not out of ignorance and spamming urges but the death tolls everyday in the world wars were higher.
I've wanked more times in a day than that:dabs:
Thats whats reported, 5 soilders could have been killed in the time it takes to post this. Remember in the Army, if theres no body, theres no kill.
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Re: What Did They Die For?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
Most of the border-crossers and other rabble-rousers are Jihad-unto-death types, inculcated at the mosques to hate America, Israel, and the West in general, conditioned unconditionally, per "Allah's"
You can tell yourself this until you're blue in the face, it still won't be true.
They don't hate our way of life, or our customs and morals ... they hate the way we charge around the world as though we own it. They hate the way we sustain Israel, even when they are quite clearly in the wrong. They hate the way we indiscriminately kill their men, women and kids. In Afghanistan they hate the way we pay the warlords for keeping them oppressed, even allowing them to sit in the puppet government. In Iraq they hate the way we invaded on a pack of lies, and they hate the way we've treated them like shit since we got there. They also hate the way Saddam is sentenced to death, but those who sustained him, armed him, protected him at the UN, and urged him to carry out an unprovoked attack on Iran, are getting off scott free.
But of course, in your little Fox coloured world that counts for nothing, they should just sit back and take it, because the mighty US of A has god on it's side.
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Re: What Did They Die For?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ava Estelle
They don't hate our way of life, or our customs and morals ...
Yes they do.
They think a lot of what we accept as a normal part of life, in a free society, is sinful. They want everyone else to join their religion and follow their belief system.
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Re: What Did They Die For?
i was in the army 2 years ago
and about 6 months ago i was sat watching the news and guess wat they told me a good mate in the army he had died in iraq also one mate went to iraq about 2months before it kicked off to sercure the oil fields!!
i was gutted about it mates in the army are different to my in day to day life
but
i knew he was there doing wat he loved
when people say why did they die it annoyed me and i can also see what they are saying
all the terrism was going to happen something trust me i have seen the document bout 5years ago
so all i can say
they knew wat they were doing when the walked in to the office and said
I WANT TO JON THE ARMY
they will alway be remembered and never forgot
R.I.P boys alway thinking off you
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Re: What Did They Die For?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sjg1983
i was in the army 2 years ago
and about 6 months ago i was sat watching the news and guess wat they told me a good mate in the army he had died in iraq also one mate went to iraq about 2months before it kicked off to sercure the oil fields!!
i was gutted about it mates in the army are different to my in day to day life
but
i knew he was there doing wat he loved
when people say why did they die it annoyed me and i can also see what they are saying
all the terrism was going to happen something trust me i have seen the document bout 5years ago
so all i can say
they knew wat they were doing when the walked in to the office and said
I WANT TO JON THE ARMY
they will alway be remembered and never forgot
R.I.P boys alway thinking off you
Which country's army were you in.
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Re: What Did They Die For?
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Re: What Did They Die For?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JPaul
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ava Estelle
They don't hate our way of life, or our customs and morals ...
Yes they do.
No they don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JPaul
They think a lot of what we accept as a normal part of life, in a free society, is sinful. They want everyone else to join their religion and follow their belief system.
A bit like catholicism then.
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Re: What Did They Die For?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ava Estelle
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JPaul
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ava Estelle
They don't hate our way of life, or our customs and morals ...
Yes they do.
They think a lot of what we accept as a normal part of life, in a free society, is sinful. They want everyone else to join their religion and follow their belief system.
No they don't.
If the words come directly from the mouths of the Jihadists for all to hear, and appear on videotape for all to see, who are you to call them liars?
I take them at their word.
You claim to know better...could you explain how you come by this highly-privileged knowledge?
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Re: What Did They Die For?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ava Estelle
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JPaul
Yes they do.
No they don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JPaul
They think a lot of what we accept as a normal part of life, in a free society, is sinful. They want everyone else to join their religion and follow their belief system.
A bit like catholicism then.
Nope, Christianity teaches forgiveness, not fatwah.
You're still as predictable btw.
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Re: What Did They Die For?
Would it be fair to say that they don't like our beliefs or way of life, but that they attacked us for something else?
If you look back bin laden was upset not that we are infidels but because we infidels had our military in his land.
They "hate us for our freedoms" makes a for a great soundbite to stir emotions but less of a reason that they attacked us.
This is a very simplified take and not meant to cover all the nuances
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Re: What Did They Die For?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
vidcc
Would it be fair to say that they don't like our beliefs or way of life, but that they attacked us for something else?
If you look back bin laden was upset not that we are infidels but because we infidels had our military in his land.
They "hate us for our freedoms" makes a for a great soundbite to stir emotions but less of a reason that they attacked us.
This is a very simplified take and not meant to cover all the nuances
Good post.
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Re: What Did They Die For?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
vidcc
Would it be fair to say that they don't like our beliefs or way of life, but that they attacked us for something else?
If you look back bin laden was upset not that we are infidels but because we infidels had our military in his land.
They "hate us for our freedoms" makes a for a great soundbite to stir emotions but less of a reason that they attacked us.
This is a very simplified take and not meant to cover all the nuances
Would it be fair to say this qualifies as a nuance?
Bin Laden and Al Qaeda are merely the tree which springs from the root being fertilized by Wahhibism, and the Moqtada al Sadrs and Nasrallahs of the Islamic world.
The mal-intent toward the west is interwoven with Islam at every level, inculcated in children from the earliest stages.
Allahu Akbar! is on every student's lips.
This creates a fervor for the "cause" which isn't altered or short-circuited by any gestures of appeasement such as removal of a troop-force.
We are not going to desert Israel, either.
Simply put, not even "re-deployment" and a commensurate lessening of influence can undo their efforts to date.
Do you propose the U.N. undertake to de-program Islamic youth in it's entirety?
That's several nuances, actually.
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Re: What Did They Die For?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
Would it be fair to say this qualifies as a nuance?
Bin Laden and Al Qaeda are merely the tree which springs from the root being fertilized by Wahhibism, and the Moqtada al Sadrs and Nasrallahs of the Islamic world.
The mal-intent toward the west is interwoven with Islam at every level, inculcated in children from the earliest stages.
Allahu Akbar! is on every student's lips.
This creates a fervor for the "cause" which isn't altered or short-circuited by any gestures of appeasement such as removal of a troop-force.
We are not going to desert Israel, either.
In the US, a hugely christian land, isn't the same message preached, "god is greater than everything".?
Had we not been in saudi would we have been targetted? I mean they didn't attack belgium did they?
perhaps you missed the point of what I said.
Quote:
They "hate us for our freedoms" makes a for a great soundbite to stir emotions but less of a reason that they attacked us.
it is used here to propagate fear, demonise the enemy and deflect from any other reason that may not be in our favor to deal with. The same tactic is used on the other side to rouse the masses to a cause.
You can see the same tactic with different words in every day American politics. Listen to limbaugh or hannity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
Simply put, not even "re-deployment" and a commensurate lessening of influence can undo their efforts to date.
Could the damage have already been done? It's not just about troops now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
Do you propose the U.N. undertake to de-program Islamic youth in it's entirety?
Do I propose ??????????
If you wish to propose something and ask if I think it's a good idea then feel free to do so, other than that please explain which ass you pulled that proposal and attached to me from.
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Re: What Did They Die For?
Where have those pesky colored alerts gone off to?:unsure:
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Re: What Did They Die For?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
vidcc
In the US, a hugely christian land, isn't the same message preached, "god is greater than everything".?
Had we not been in saudi would we have been targetted? I mean they didn't attack belgium did they?
perhaps you missed the point of what I said.
Quote:
They "hate us for our freedoms" makes a for a great soundbite to stir emotions but less of a reason that they attacked us.
it is used here to propagate fear, demonise the enemy and deflect from any other reason that may not be in our favor to deal with. The same tactic is used on the other side to rouse the masses to a cause.
You can see the same tactic with different words in every day American politics. Listen to limbaugh or hannity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
Simply put, not even "re-deployment" and a commensurate lessening of influence can undo their efforts to date.
Could the damage have already been done? It's not just about troops now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
Do you propose the U.N. undertake to de-program Islamic youth in it's entirety?
Do
I propose ??????????
If you wish to propose something and ask if I think it's a good idea then feel free to do so, other than that please explain which ass you pulled that proposal and attached to me from.
Okay, have it your way:
How do you propose we "undo" Wahhabism?
I made the mistake of assuming you'd prefer it done in the usual way.
BTW-
In our "hugely Christian land" where do you go to find youngsters
imbued with the duty to shed Islamic blood?
Hell, they teach the anti-west message in mosques right here in America.
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Re: What Did They Die For?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JPaul
Nope, Christianity teaches forgiveness, not fatwah.
Christianity has been responsible over the centuries for the biggest 'fatwahs' ever, remember the Inquisitions?
Christianity teaches that the ONLY way to god is through Jesus and the Vatican has often stated that all other religions are 'misguided'.
Muslin countries are then attacked by a Christian country claiming to have god on their side.
The Middle East is crawling with Christians actively working to bring on the 'rapture', which they claim will save only them, no jews, no muslims or anyone else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
.. the root being fertilized by Wahhibism, and the Moqtada al Sadrs and Nasrallahs of the Islamic world.
Moqtada al Sadr and Nasrallah are shiites.
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
If the words come directly from the mouths of the Jihadists for all to hear, and appear on videotape for all to see, who are you to call them liars?
So George Bush and his harem tell the truth do they? They don't make things up to motivate the American people?
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
You claim to know better...could you explain how you come by this highly-privileged knowledge?
Maybe you should answer your own question, or do we take it for granted that the answer is 'Fox News'?
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
Would it be fair to say that they don't like our beliefs or way of life, but that they attacked us for something else?
A voice of reason in a sea of spin.
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Re: What Did They Die For?
How very BD
You made a statement that was incorrect but you can't admit that, so you post a load of deflection saying that other people are as bad.
Tu quoque, same old same old.
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Re: What Did They Die For?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
Okay, have it your way:
How do you propose we "undo" Wahhabism?
I made the mistake of assuming you'd prefer it done in the usual way.
That is a long task that will take generations, but to start with I would look deeply into our foreign policy. We need to start being minimalists when it comes to interfering in the affairs of other nations, and when we do deal with others we need to stop looking at things purely from "what benefits us".
We can work with other nations without interfering with their internal affairs.
The US works best when it is helping in situations such as natural disasters. This can be enhanced with international coalitions to step in to prevent things like genocide.
In conflicts where we have no direct military involvement, taking one side then demanding that the only way a solution is going to be found is if the other side surrenders will not help our standing. If we are going to get involved then we need to be neutral.
The US would resent any outside interference in our local affairs, what logical reasoning concludes that our interference won't have the same effect.
Again this is very simplified and not meant to cover every nuance.
As I said they may not like our lifestyles but that's not why they started to attack us, we have other things going for us.
Now how do you suggest we stop them hating us? we can't kill them all, and as a tactic it's not really endearing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
j2k4
BTW-
In our "hugely Christian land" where do you go to find youngsters
imbued with the duty to shed Islamic blood?
Hell, they teach the anti-west message in mosques right here in America.
jesus camp jesus camp 2
Quote:
Allahu Akbar! is on every student's lips.
So it's wrong to say "god is great" ? Even as an atheist I don't think it's wrong saying it. It's a different matter when this fictional character is used to justify doing bad things though.
Are you saying that "god is greater than everything" is not taught in churches and by almost everyone up for election? Do you disagree that "god is greater than everything"? or just if it's said by a muslim and it might be a different god from your own?
You seem unwilling to see the difference between that message and its use as rhetoric to stir up emotion. Do we not see it from those that wish to put the ten commandments in every public building?
Are you suggesting that there is no anti-muslim rhetoric? glenn beck came straight out and asked our first muslim lawmaker if he sided with the US or the jihadists, not because of anything the lawmaker said or did, but simply because he is a muslim. Heck, you are using the actions of extremists to stir up anti muslim emotions.
Will you concede that there is a huge difference between someone who is fanatically religious and someone who is fanatical and uses religion as a tool?
Islam is a peaceful religion, as is christianity. There are those that interpret the "holy books" to reflect their personal views instead of looking at them for "guidance"
As an example, Jesus was about forgiveness. He stepped in and prevented an execution "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". So why do so many christians here support the death penalty and go with "an eye for an eye"?
In the US there has always been a bogeyman and the rhetoric about that bogeyman is often based more on bias and the need to demonise than fact.
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Re: What Did They Die For?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JPaul
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ava Estelle
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JPaul
They think a lot of what we accept as a normal part of life, in a free society, is sinful. They want everyone else to join their religion and follow their belief system.
A bit like catholicism then.
Nope, Christianity teaches forgiveness, not fatwah.
You're still as predictable btw.
JP that isn't much of a rebuttal. I think Ava's point was accurate; correct me if i'm wrong, but catholicism does teach that various things that regularly happen in the west are sinful (mostly relating to sex) and does teach that you should try to convert people.
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Re: What Did They Die For?
How does that change the original point. He said blah, I said blah was wrong.
He's deflecting the point, as always.
If I say Milwall supporters cause trouble and have a bad reputation as a travelling support. Then you say, well so do Valencia supporters, it does not in any way change the fact that Milwall supporters are trouble makers.
He was wrong in his original contention, so rather than trying to defend it he spoke about something else. It's old hat.
There's also a World of difference between saying that you think someones actions are wrong and killing them for it. There are no Christian fatwahs.
The Pope says, says mind you that a certain group have a violent way of dealing with things. They prove him wrong by burning churches and by shooting people. Hm, how does that work well.
I'm not even answering anything regarding the inquisitions, as it's another old hat argument about something that happened hundreds of years ago and was done in the name of some people. Or do we continue to despise modern Germans because of the holocaust.
Bearing in mind, that people saying they have God on their side is entirely different from religious leader talking, or giving edicts. I can assure you, George W Bush saying he has God on his side does not mean he is speaking for Christians. However Muslim leaders making proclamations are speaking as heads of their Church.
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Re: What Did They Die For?
I think Ava's point was valid, it was a people in glass houses type comment. Ava didn't make any point about violence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JPaul
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ava Estelle
They don't hate our way of life, or our customs and morals ...
Yes they do.
They think a lot of what we accept as a normal part of life, in a free society, is sinful. They want everyone else to join their religion and follow their belief system.
I felt that in your above comment the implication was that: regarding western life as sinful and wanting others to join your religion; was somehow an example of hating western morals and our way of life. Imo thats a strange comment because anyone from This to me is a strange comment because almost all religious people will probably find much of western life sinful and the conversion comment is strange coming from a christian, considering that christianity is a strongly proselytising religion.
sorry above post is incomplete i got bored. religion sucks end of story
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Re: What Did They Die For?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ilw
I think Ava's point was valid, it was a people in glass houses type comment. Ava didn't make any point about violence
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JPaul
Yes they do.
They think a lot of what we accept as a normal part of life, in a free society, is sinful. They want everyone else to join their religion and follow their belief system.
I felt that in your above comment the implication was that: regarding western life as sinful and wanting others to join your religion; was somehow an example of hating western morals and our way of life. Imo thats a strange comment because anyone from This to me is a strange comment because almost all religious people will probably find much of western life sinful and the conversion comment is strange coming from a christian, considering that christianity is a strongly proselytising religion.
sorry above post is incomplete i got bored. religion sucks end of story
He said ""They don't hate our way of life, or our customs and morals .."
That's simply not true.
