How many of the Jews murdered were Israeli. Anyone other than Billy to answer obviously, as he won't.
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How many of the Jews murdered were Israeli. Anyone other than Billy to answer obviously, as he won't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip Monk
Im guessing IBM would know how many jews were killed in total, seeing as they helped in the process.
http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/
Just finished reading this book, and found it interesting....
sorry for intruding on the heated debate...i'll get out the way now...
peace,
Mindfukced
Totally irrelevant, as large numbers of the terrorists came from Germany and other parts of Europe, and many of them were survivors of the concentration camps. Out of the camps and murdering Palestinians ... where did they get the idea from?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip Monk
Not that a catholic has any right to comment on the holocaust. In the years preceding the war, when the harassment of the jews first started, the Vatican signed a deal with the Nazis that they wouldn't interfere or comment on their treatment of the jews. When it became apparent that they were being exterminated the Vatican said nothing, and catholic churches were locked and guarded to stop jews from seeking asylum. After the war the Vatican set up RATLINE to aid in the escape of Nazi war criminals to South America, where they were looked after by the catholic church in those countries. The chief instigator of this was Bishop Alois Hudal, who oversaw, among others, the escape of Klaus Barbie, Adolf Eichmann, Heinrich Mueller, and Franz Stangl. This is an organisation that you support, and help finance ... so how's you conscience ... clear, I bet!
So it's a Jewish thing, not an Israeli thing. All Jews are terrorists are they. Are all Muslims terrorists as well.
The classic Catholic deflection thing as well. Double cool.
AUTOMERGED HERE
A Jewish Anti-Zionist Writer
The Truth at Last About Pope Pius and The Holocaust
By Dr. Alfred M. Lilienthal
May/June 1998, pages 28-31
In its March 18, 1998 editorial “The Vatican’s Holocaust Report,” The New York Times hails Pope John Paul’s repudiation of anti-Semitism, but calls on him to take the next step by pointing to the failure of Pope Pius XII to speak out against Nazi atrocities. The Times concludes that a “full exploration of Pope Pius’ conduct is needed.” At the same time Jewish organizations and the chief rabbi of Israel blasted the Vatican apology as “too little, too late.”
The full and complete story of Pius XII’s activities brings to mind Gilbert and Sullivan’s “HMS Pinafore”: “Things are seldom what they seem. Skimmed milk masquerades as cream.”
The media, particularly the printed, have persistently and consistently gone out of its way to bring to its readers any and all references to Nazi genocide against the Jews of Europe. The incredible and incessant number of references, often on the front page, to the Swiss withholding of deposits of Holocaust victims is but the latest “looking back” with guilt to the European tragedy.
The tempo of the Holocaustomania has most recently been stepped up in order to induce deep feelings of guilt, particularly on the part of Christians, at a time when Israelis and Palestinians are very much deadlocked in their negotiations and Tel Aviv could use renewed public sympathy.
Accusations in the New York Times ’ editorials and in its letters to the editor, also appearing elsewhere in the media, that Pope Pius XII (Eugenio Pacelli) did nothing during World War II to help Jews prove factually to be a total perversion of the truth. This aged canard has been advanced in support of the demand that the Vatican now issue a further and fuller apology to the Jewish people as the bishops of France have already done.
A close examination of the historical record reveals the very many positive actions of the wartime pope on behalf of endangered Jews. In 1934, as papal secretary of state, Pacelli had urged Pope Pius XI to open the doors of Vatican City to Italian and German dissidents. Shortly before his election, the pope-to-be demonstrated his concern for Jewish intellectuals by sending a letter (dated Jan. 12, 1939) to the four cardinals of the U.S. and Canada, begging them to try to remedy the “deplorable reluctance” of Catholic universities in those countries to accept more German Jewish professors and Jewish thinkers on their faculties.
As pope the following year, he founded the Catholic Refugee Committee in Rome and put in charge of this activity his own secretary, Father Robert Leiber, and his housekeeper, Mother Pasqualina. According to Monsignor G. Roche’s well-documented study Pie XII Avant l’Histoire, this committee paved the way for tens of thousands of German Jews to enter America as Catholics, providing them with a regular and efficient service documentation, baptismal certificates, financial aid, and arrangements abroad. This French historian estimated that by 1942 over one million Jews, on Vatican directives, were being housed in convents and monasteries throughout Europe.
The Holy Father himself set an example by taking care of some 15,000 Jews at Castel Gandolfo, as well as several thousand in Vatican City, where the refugees of all faiths included such famed diplomats as the future Christian Democratic Prime Minister Alcide de Gas peri and Socialist leader Pietro Nenni. By 1943 these refugees were overflowing into the papal apartments themselves. Chief Rabbi of Rome Israel Zolli subsequently became a Catholic convert, reportedly in gratitude for Pius’s wartime protection, and took as his given name, Eugenio, Pius XII’s given name.
Meanwhile, under the personal authorization of Pope Pius, Monsignor Angello Roncalli, the future Pope John XXIII, was working assiduously at his Istanbul post to help many hundreds of thousands of Eastern European Jews on their way to Palestine. In France the pope’s deputy, Cardinal Eugene Tisserant, and his Joint Distribution Committee were doing everything in their power to facilitate Jewish emigration under the very nose of the government of Marshal Henri Philippe Pétain.
An underground printing press at Nice, protected by the archbishop and the mayor of the city, produced 1,895 identity cards, 1,360 work permits, 1,230 birth certificates, 428 demobilization letters and 950 baptismal certificates before it was discovered. And as far as Hungary was concerned, the Holy Father, through personal correspondence with Regent Miklos Horthy, won guarantees that the country’s 800,000 Jews would not be deported if they submitted to mass baptism.
Because of his show of concern for the Jewish plight, often in a spectacular way, Eugenio Pacelli might rather have been accused of pro-Zionist sympathies. As a cardinal coming into New York harbor in October 1937 aboard the Conte di Sa voia, he asked the ship’s captain to fly, alongside the papal flag, the six-pointed star of the future state of Israel in honor of the 600 Jewish refugees then on board. And just prior to the entrance of the German army into Rome in 1943, the pope ordered the Papal seal to be prominently engraved on the main Roman synagogue for its protection.
The famed, highly successful play “The Deputy,” by Rolf Hochhuth, which ran on Broadway in 1964, nevertheless was an exposition of the theme that Pope Pius lacked compassion and could have saved many Jewish lives. The main condemnatory evidence against the pope was his reluctance to go along with President Roosevelt’s suggestion that the pope publicly condemn the extermination of Jews at Auschwitz. The pope always had to face the possibility that such an open condemnation of the Nazis could lead to the seizure of Vatican City.
Did that reluctance to take up the Roosevelt suggestion spell out anti-Semitism? As Jesuit Father Robert Leiber, his secretary, wrote, “The Pope sided very unequivocally with the Jews at that time. He spent the entire fortune he inherited from his family as a Pacelli on their behalf.”
The Holy Father had similarly been silent on any condemnation of the multifold illegal actions and cruelties of the Communist regime, which was fighting the Hitler horde. That silence, however, had been in accordance with a specific promise extracted from him by the U.S. and Britain, who had, meanwhile, become allied with the Soviet Union.
The necessity for the utmost secrecy in the relations between the Vatican and the Allied Powers as the Nazis spread their hold on Europe was further emphasized in British documents. The 1972 release of British Foreign Office papers showed that Pope Pius XII had learned of the Nazi plans for invading France and the Low Countries in May 1940, and had then tipped off the British. According to Jesuit historian Reverend Robert Graham, the pope’s information about the impending assault had come from a German spy, who was in fact a double agent. The invaluable information was forwarded to 10 Downing Street in a coded cable from the British minister at the Holy See. The Holy Father was at the same time involved in negotiations with certain anti-Hitler officers seeking a British guarantee for non-humiliating peace terms in the event that their planned coup d’état should be successfully staged. After the fall of France, the pope asked the British to destroy any record of the Vatican’s involvement in abortive negotiations with the anti-Hitler resistance.
It is true that the release by the Vatican of its own documents for 1943 showed that Rome had been deeply disturbed by the growing possibility of a Jewish state in the Middle East. But opposition to statehood did not vitiate the quiet diplomacy carried on in behalf of the European Jews, as these papers revealed. The Catholic leadership had long insisted that refugeeism be distinguished from statehood. Cardinal Luigi Maglione, then secretary of state, suggested “other territories which would be more suitable” for a Jewish entity, while Pope John, even when as papal nuncio in Istanbul he was helping Jewish refugees reach Palestine, was expressing fears that his efforts might lead to the “realization of the Messianic dream.”
Monsignor Domenico Tardini, deputy secretary of state, wrote to the papal legate in London, Monsignor William God frey, that “the Holy See had never approved the plan to make Palestine a Jewish homeland.” This followed in a clear line the traditional Vatican opposition to the objectives of Zionism, expressed guardedly by Benedict XV in 1921 and forthrightly by Pius X to Herzl himself in 1904. This was only changed with the Vatican’s full recognition of the Israeli state and exchange of diplomatic representations in December 1993 in the wake of continued, enormous Zionist pressures exerted particularly on Cardinal O’Connor in New York.
But this same 688-page volume contained documents that the Vatican protested strongly the mass arrest of 1,027 Jews in the Rome ghetto and their transportation to death camps north of Italy. Cardinal Maglione summoned the German ambassador to the Holy See, Baron Ernst von Weizaecker, and in the strongest language (according to the introduction to the volume) indicated that the raid on the Jewish quarter “was painful for the Holy Father, painful beyond words, that in Rome itself, under the very eyes of a common Father, so many persons are made to suffer simply because they belong to another race.”
“What would the Holy See do if things were to continue like this?” asked the German envoy.
“The Holy See would not like to be faced with the necessity of voicing its disapproval,” the cardinal replied, indicating that the pope might make a public protest, the first of the war. “For now the Holy See hopes not to say anything that the German people might consider an act of hostility during a terrible war, but there are limits.”
The ambassador indicated that the raid in Rome had been made on orders from Berlin and Hitler. He asked whether he could keep the protest to himself and not report it to Berlin, and the cardinal agreed.
“Your Excellency has told me that you will do something for the poor Jews,” the cardinal said. “I thank you. I leave the rest to your judgment. If you think it more opportune not to make any mention of our conversation, so be it.”
Secretiveness was maintained because mention of the conversation was deemed to be “dangerous and counterproductive.” Of the 1,027 Jews arrested on Oct. 6, 1943, only about 15 returned alive. But, as British Minister to the Holy See Sir Francis Godolphin D’Arcy Osborne noted in the British Foreign Office documents, the Vatican’s intervention “seems to have saved a certain number of Jews,” and, as importantly, there were no further mass arrests after the Vatican’s move. The 22,000 Jews who remained in Rome went into hiding as of that day, often helped by local Catholic clergymen, including the famous Reverend Marie Benoit, a Cappucine, who became a legendary figure in rescuing Roman Jews.
Perhaps the best summation of Pius XII’s efforts on behalf of the Jews was contained in the book Three Popes and the Jews, by the Israeli journalist and diplomat Pinchas E. Lapide:
“The Catholic Church under the pontificate of Pius XII was instrumental in saving at least 700,000, but probably as many as 860,000, Jews from certain death at Nazi hands...these figures exceed by far those saved by all other churches, religious institutions and rescue organizations combined.”
This history of most constructive efforts by Pius XII certainly should not be shrouded by the prevailing Holocaustomania spun by The New York Times and other segments of the media.
1 Lapide, Pinchas E., Three Popes and the Jews, (New York: Hawthorne Books, 1967), pp. 214-15.
Dr. Alfred M. Lilienthal is the author of The Zionist Connection, What Price Israel? and other major works.
http://www.alfredlilienthal.com/popepius.htm
No answer then ... I didn't think so, a bit above you. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip Monk
Indeed, you didn't answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ava EstelleNo answer then ... I didn't think so, a bit above you. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip Monk
It's the anti-semitism, anti-catholicism, bile mate. You just get so clogged up with it you can't think straight. Reading propoganda and conspiracy theories from mentalists doesn't help either.
We could play the blame game all day about who killed who and who stole whose land but is it directly pertinent to the bellicose noises from some (not all) in the current US administration towards Iran :)
Wassup JP, don't like your own medicine? Why don't you answer?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip Monk
I thought it was rather ironic that you quoted an anti-Israeli to 'prove' your point about the catholic collusion with the Nazis, did you actually read it?
Did you also know that Dr. Alfred M. Lilienthal also claims that European jews have no right to be in Palestine because they are not descended from the ancient hebrews, and are not, in fact, semitic?
I take it then, seeing as you quoted him, that you agree with all he has to say. :)
I deliberately posted an anti-Israeli, a Jewish one at that, praising the Pope for what the catholic Church had done during the second World war. You quite obviously haven't read the piece if you think it shows the Church colluded with the Nazis. Let's not squabble your lack of understanding tho'. Other people who read it can work out how far off the mark you are, I can only assume deliberately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ava EstelleWassup JP, don't like your own medicine? Why don't you answer?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip Monk
I thought it was rather ironic that you quoted an anti-Israeli to 'prove' your point about the catholic collusion with the Nazis, did you actually read it?
Did you also know that Dr. Alfred M. Lilienthal also claims that European jews have no right to be in Palestine because they are not descended from the ancient hebrews, and are not, in fact, semitic?
I take it then, seeing as you quoted him, that you agree with all he has to say. :)
He also points out that the Catholic Church did not want a Jewish State in the Middle East, the same position as you as it happens. However in spite of that they helped the Jews more than all the other churches, religious institutions and rescue organisations put together. Which is totally at odds with your repeated claims, based on misinformation and propaganda that the Church did nothing to help the Jewish people.
Like I said earlier I have absolutely no problem with you or anyone else opposing an Israeli state. Matter for you, I'll even support your right to do it. However the Nazis did not murder an Israeli State, or even murder Israelis. They murdered Jews. They were not opposing an Israeli state, they were "ethnic cleansing".
"Did you also know that Dr. Alfred M. Lilienthal also claims that European jews have no right to be in Palestine because they are not descended from the ancient hebrews, and are not, in fact, semitic? "
I didn't know that, however if that's his position he's entitled to it I'm really not fussed either way. I don't see how it effects how he reported the Pope's actions. Unless of course you are suggesting that it makes him an unreliable person. I assume you aren't suggesting that but please feel free to correct me on that.
Haha, and I'm supposed to believe that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip Monk
The man is a self confessed anti-zionist, who has no time for European jews, and he 'defends' the position of the catholic church, who, like him, doesn't want a jewish state ... and you present that, not only as absolute 'proof', but the definitive answer, as if there is no other point of view. How cute, I won't bother posting a refutation, it's a moot point.
Did he, or you, comment on RATLINE? Are you ready to answer that yet? Do you have another jewish gentleman who claims that didn't happen?
I won't hold my breath waiting for you to answer, I'll check in tomorrow and see what other funnies you've come up with. :lol:
Presumably you see the irony of me posting an anti-Israeli. Maybe not.
"and you present that, not only as absolute 'proof', but the definitive answer, as if there is no other point of view."
Never let it be said Billy puts words in people's mouth or owt.
I've never heard of RATLINE Billy, other than you posting about it. Here's my answer. I don't know what it is so I'll take it on face value that you are right.
If you don't accept that the good Doctor is a reliable witness as to the Pope's actions during the war then what about Golda Meir
"At the time of Pius PP. XII's death in 1958, Israel's Golda Meir, who later became prime minister, telegraphed Rome: "...When fearful martyrdom came to our people in the decade of Nazi terror, the voice of the pope was raised for the victims. The life of our times was enriched by a voice speaking out on the great moral truths above the tumult of daily conflict."
She went on to become Prime Minister. So what we have are Jews from totally opposing viewpoints both praising the man.
Another selective post JP. Golda Meir wrote that in 1958, before the Vatican archives were opened, throwing some light on the catholic church's involvement. She also knew nothing of RATLINE.
Here 's a bit of reading for you, plenty of links too. The Jewish Virtual Library
So, what about the RATLINE? Now you know of it, why not learn and comment? For instance, what was the Vatican's motives for aiding the escape of Nazi war criminals? Could it be because some of them knew too much? That they were good catholics? Why would they then look after them in South America?
I look forward to your reply, tomorrow, unless this cyclone hits us in the meantime, in which case it may be a few days. :)
Just a bit about the Vatican and CIA documents, as it says, the first papers weren't released until the 1980's ... I don't know what the outcome of this court case was, I'll find out later ..
Two California attorneys have filed a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit in a bid to have the U.S. Army and CIA release documents relating to alleged Vatican collaboration with Nazi-allied fascists in the wartime Balkans.
The Army's decision earlier this year to withhold more than 250 documents, some at the request of the CIA, was in violation of the Nazi War Crimes Disclosure Act, the lawyers contended in their complaint.
Jonathan Levy and Tom Easton are representing elderly Serb, Jewish and Ukrainian survivors of atrocities committed by the Nazi puppet regime in Croatia, the Ustashe, in a class action lawsuit against the Vatican Bank and the monastic Franciscan Order.
Wartime intelligence documents have suggested Ustashe leaders took loot, including gold, silver and jewelry seized from their victims, to the Vatican at the end of the war.
There the assets were allegedly used to help finance an escape route - the "ratline" - for Nazis trying to escape Europe, according to the Simon Wiesenthal Center, which tracks Nazi war criminals.
The Vatican has consistently denied the allegations, while declining to open its unpublished wartime archives despite appeals from Jewish and other groups.
Source
Billy you're flogging a dead horse here, again. The Catholic Church has done some terrible things in it's history, or at least people from within it. I've said that loads of times.
Jewish people have done terrible things. You pointed that out yourself. In fact it's the only other one you seem to accept.
Muslims have done terrible things. The Muslim leadership still issue death warrants. Still preach hate in the streets. Still encourage murder and violence. Not exactly big on equal rights either if the stories are to be believed.
Protestants have done terrible things. They murdered innocent people in Ireland in the same way Catholics did. there's not as many of them Worldwide, nor are they as old, however they have done their bit.
White imperialists of various religions or none at all have done terrible things, have tortured and enslaved, all over the World. You yourself argue that they continue to do it to this day.
The Chinese have a dreadful history on civil rights. As have various other countries.
The Nazi Party, a political group. No need to go into that, everyone knows it. But what of the political organisations in the UK who supported the upper classes. What about the way the poor were downtrodden and had little or no rights.
What about the potato famines in Ireland. Probably mostly Catholics who suffered in that one.
The point is, you are anti-semite and anti-catholic. So you only accept that these groups (or members of them) are guilty of any wrong. In spite of the fact that others have done as much.
Muslim terrorists murdered thousands in America, in a well organised, well funded, well trained manner. This was not a random group of terrorists. So shall we blame everyone of that faith. Everyone who supports the teachings of Islam, or helps to support it financially.
We've been here before, it's all so predictable.
Good post JP, mostly.
Unlike catholicism, there is no Muslim leadership, that's part of the problem, if they had a 'Vatican' things may be different. Catholicism is run from the top, Islam is run locally.
Your accusations of anti-semitism needs clarification; if you're saying I hate all jews, you're wrong; if you're saying I hate the government of Israel, and Zionism, and that's why I'm anti-semite, you're also wrong, unless you're saying that jews who feel the same way are also anti-semite.
With regards to the 1947-49 Israeli war of Independence, the terrorists who started the slaughter of Palestinians were jewish, not Israeli, Israel wasn't founded until 1948, and you still haven't commented on their actions.
Here's a quote for you, from Aharon Zisling, the minister of agriculture, who told the Israeli cabinet on 17 November 1948: "I couldn't sleep all night. I felt that things that were going on were hurting my soul, the soul of my family and all of us here (...) Now Jews too have behaved like Nazis and my entire being has been shaken.
It's worth mentioning too that representatives of one of these 'gangs' met with the Nazis prior to the war and suggested they expel all European jews, with the hope that enough would settle in Palestine to give the Zionists a majority jewish population. I wonder what Hitler thought of the idea?
By anti-catholic, I take it you're talking about the religion, if you're talking about all catholics you are wrong again.
Then, of course, you forgot to mention the US, although you mentioned 9\11, maybe you believe the deaths of 30,000 innocent Afghani civilians in the revenge attack was justified?
The rest of your post is correct, and I have supported those views also.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ava Estelle
Post the Balfour Declaration of 1917 there was a steady trickle of Jewish immigrants to Palestine. These people bought land and businesses and farmed and traded with only minor clashes recorded with the local population. Post 1935, when Hitler's anti-Jewish policies really began to kick in, there was a flood of refugees to Palestine. More immigrated between 1935 and 1939 than between 1917 and 1934. So one could say that the Nazis were not adverse to ethnically cleansing rather than out and out killing. The big difference being that these subsequent refugees were stripped of property by the Nazis and were consequently penniless, often middle class, urbanites. Quite different from those who who had moved to Palestine in the two decades before. The Arabs petitioned the British to stop the ships coming from Europe. The British agreed and turned ships back in the 39 sending the occcupants to almost certain death in the camps back in Germany.
Not just the British, the US turned refugees away too, like the St. Louis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggles
It is perhaps easy to forget how popular bigotry and persecution were pre WW2 - not to say that it is still not commonplace but in the 1930s, and before, one could openly display ones bigotry with pride. Popular newspapers on both sides of the Atlantic in the early 30s were far from against Hitler and his views on race and racial purity. There have been holocausts before - the Armenians in the Great War is an example - but somehow these were pushed to the back of peoples' consciousness (it is still a crime to talk about it in Turkey to ensure it stays there too) but the revelations of the camps in Germany were too horrific and too apparent to ignore. Consciousness was raised and moral certainties about race became moral dilemmas.