Madrid Terrorism/spanish Election

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Originally posted by mrcall1969@16 March 2004 - 03:30
Ack.. Yes or no who thinks if Spain hadn't got involved in Iraq, the bombings would'nt have happened???


No the UK or Spain Governments didn't get their "arm twisted" in joining the war on "terrorism". The key word is "governments".

j2k4 and hobbes, come here among the lowly, normal people and ask them about the "war", I guarantee you will get a response that you would not expect or like, however much you think it is on terrorism, the terrorism is much closer to us than you.

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Okay.

If Spain hadn't joined us in Iraq, I don't imagine they would have been bombed.

Now, a question for you:

Is the U.S. responsible?

Just as responsible as Al Qaida?

More responsible than Al Qaida?

Totally responsible?

And now Hobbes and I are elitist into the bargain?

What is it makes you think we're not more-or-less par, mrcall1969?

I am rather lowly and normal, if I say so myself; don't assume you've got the market cornered on that score. ;)

Although I may be more even-tempered than you.

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Originally posted by mrcall1969@16 March 2004 - 02:50
We're going nowhere with this.
But who thinks is Spain hadn't got invlolved the bombings wouldn't have happened??

And who thinks Britain is next, and not just London, try coming to Scotland and getting searched by armed guards before going in to do a job that is supposed to help people (most of them American)

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I think if Spain hadn't gotten involved the bombings wouldn't have happened call......this time.

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Originally posted by j2k4+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>My intent in starting this thread was to explore the event and it&#39;s ramifications; [/b]

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Sure.... Your intent was correctly identified by mrcall1969

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Originally posted by mrcall1969+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (mrcall1969)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>supporting America appears to be the real reason that this thread was started.[/b]

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Originally posted by j2k4
I find it ironic that the only respondent here capable of discerning my aim is another American whose political views are almost diametrically opposed to my own.

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Don&#39;t try and hide behind hobbes. There are serious differences between you and him on this issue.

Hobbes is arguing that the Spanish people got rid of their government because they were not acting in accordance with the wishes of the people and that this has caused, albeit inadvertently, a victory for Al-Queda.

You, on the other hand, are arguing that "They were struck by fear and awe of the attack" and thats why they got rid of the Gvt. Because they are scared and would rather sit on the sidelines than fight terrorism.

I recall you offering the Spanish solidarity a few days ago in the "Spain Support" thread. How quickly that sentiment turns to accusations of cowardice as soon as the Spanish people disagree with you.

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Originally posted by j2k4
Any way you look at this; the bombings and/or the election, considered from every angle, is a huge victory for Al Qaida.

That is the bottom line, and no amount of quibbling over the particulars is going to change that.

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It is, quite obviously, a victory for democracy. The Spanish Gvt went against 90% of their people and then handled the terrorist attacks in a most cynical manner. The Spanish people decided they did not want these people representing them and showed them the door.

This is democracy at work.. yes?

Al-Queda may perceive it to be a victory for them, but it is not. The election result was due to the way the Gvt handled the bombings, not the bombings per se.

If the Spanish Gvt had handled the bombings in a more honest, open and less cynical manner they would still be in power.

This is the fundamental difference between us on this issue. You think the Spanish "chickened out" because they were scared. I think they got rid of a Gvt who no longer represented them or had a shred of credibility left. We assign very different motivations to the same action.

Now lets turn to the question of whether Al-Queda really achieved a victory here. This hinges on the issue of whether the war in Iraq is the best way to fight terrorism. I, and many other people don&#39;t believe it is. It&#39;s just an oil grabbing exercise dressed up as "the search for WMD", or "freeing the Iraqi people" or whatever fairy tale is currently being used to justify it.

What has it achieved? Is there less terrorism? Is the world a safer place? Obviously not&#33;

The only positive aspect that Iraq brings to the war on terror is that Al-Queda is currently allocating much of it&#39;s resources to bombing the Iraqis and trying to start a civil war there. Dead Iraqis instead of dead Europeans/Americans, great result. Thats all that the war in Iraq has achieved with regards to Al-Queda.

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Originally posted by j2k4
I wish to extend to you my condolences and sympathy at the loss of your friends, but wonder at your ability to lay your grief aside just long enough to lay a guilt-trip on us Americans.

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If the US hadn&#39;t needlessly attacked Iraq then 200 Spanish people would still be alive. This is undeniable fact. Al-Queda, the British and American governments and the former Spanish government are to blame for this.

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Originally posted by j2k4
You just earned your way back onto my "ignore" list; you continue to further my impression of you as the Mediterranean Avenue of board members, which is just another way of saying that you are a small property-though, as a theoretical socialist of the first order, you are probably flattered by my capitalist-pig attentions, so never mind.

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Let me know when your ready to return to the topic.

Any criticism I direct at you is always focused on your opinions and sincerity (or lack of it) with regards to the topic at hand. You, as usual, cannot maintain a debate without getting back to your "playground games".

If you are going to criticise me at least retain a little dignity and keep it in context of the topic. If a "theoretical socialist of the first order" such as myself can do it, then I&#39;m sure a "capitalist-pig" can too.

As for ignoring me...I&#39;m not sure if it&#39;ll make much difference. This is the second time in this thread I&#39;ve had to correct you on a piece of information I&#39;ve already provided.

<!--QuoteBegin-j2k4@
Edit: BTW-Do you claim a Spanish heritage?
...
you continue to further my impression of you as the Mediterranean Avenue of board members[/quote]

Do you claim to possess a short term memory of more than 7 seconds?

<!--QuoteBegin-leftism

hell... you&#39;ve offended me and I was expecting you to do this and I&#39;m not even Spanish.
[/quote]

Okay.

You have homed in on this statement to conclude I attempted to brand the Spanish as "cowards":

Quote:j2k4
They would rather hand Al Qaida a clear-cut victory than give the impression they would resist terrorism.

Taken by itself, you are right; it certainly does create that impression.

You have, however, used the quote rather selectively by intentionally failing to provide the context I intended by ignoring the very next sentence in my post:

Quote:j2k4
This last, of course, assumes Aznar would have won (as was apparently expected) in the event the bombings had not occurred.

It is precisely this type of intellectual dishonesty that relieves your best efforts of even the slightest shred of worth, lefty.

You are a good mind horribly wasted.

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Originally posted by j2k4+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You have homed in on this statement to conclude I attempted to brand the Spanish as "cowards":

Quote:j2k4
They would rather hand Al Qaida a clear-cut victory than give the impression they would resist terrorism.

Taken by itself, you are right; it certainly does create that impression.

You have, however, used the quote rather selectively by intentionally failing to provide the context I intended by ignoring the very next sentence in my post:

Quote:j2k4
This last, of course, assumes Aznar would have won (as was apparently expected) in the event the bombings had not occurred.


It is precisely this type of intellectual dishonesty that relieves your best efforts of even the slightest shred of worth, lefty.
[/b]

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1. The statement I used to conclude that you are accusing the Spanish of cowardice and not having the "balls" to fight is this one.

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Originally posted by j2k4@
They were struck by fear and awe of the attack to the extent they chose, in a rather expedited sense, to cast a vote they would not have, otherwise.

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2. The statement...

"This last, of course, assumes Aznar would have won (as was apparently expected) in the event the bombings had not occurred."

does not negate your accusations of cowardice at all. It is widely accepted that Aznar would have won anyway but it still doesn&#39;t mean that the Spanish vote was motivated by fear.

To make it explicitly honest lets go over your post again.

You offered 2 options.

<!--QuoteBegin-j2k4

My point is that:
1. The Spanish electorate either was much less-than-enamored of Aznar than was assumed, and/or:

2. They were struck by fear and awe of the attack to the extent they chose, in a rather expedited sense, to cast a vote they would not have, otherwise.[/quote]

Aznar would have lost anyway or the Spanish are cowards. Thats exactly what you said. There is nothing intellectually dishonest about my summation of your point.

What angers me is that your point is clearly motivated by political reasons. It has nothing to do with exploring the issue or discerning the truth.

The 3rd widely accepted option (that you rejected from the start) was that the combination of an extremely unpopular war and an astoundingly cynical handling of the bombings caused the surprise election result.

Many of your fellow patriots are arguing the same line on the BBC website. The Spanish are cowards because they have chosen a non-US method of fighting terrorism.

BBC

The problem is that you and your fellow patriots have equated the war in Iraq with the war on terrorism while most people in Europe think the two things have very little to do with each other.

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Originally posted by j2k4@15 March 2004 - 08:40
What do you think?

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Aye, there&#39;s the rub.

j2k4, You got what you asked for ... not that you have to like it or agree.

marc, my sympathies regarding you colleague. I can&#39;t imagine going through that kind of security every day.

If al-Qaeda was responsible for the bombing, it seems reasonable that if Spain had no involvement in the Middle East then there would be no reason to choose Spain as a target.

I think that extremist muslim militants (al-Qaeda & others) want the West out of their regions. I don&#39;t think Iraq is the only country of concern.

I don&#39;t know how involved Spain is in the Middle East. But all the industrialized (West) countries are potential targets for al-Qaeda. The countries that have military presence in the Middle East are the most likely targets.



:beerchug: omc

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Originally posted by mrcall1969@16 March 2004 - 06:50
We&#39;re going nowhere with this.
But who thinks is Spain hadn&#39;t got invlolved the bombings wouldn&#39;t have happened??

And who thinks Britain is next, and not just London, try coming to Scotland and getting searched by armed guards before going in to do a job that is supposed to help people (most of them American)

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It seems logical that if the Al Queda attack spain for have a part in the war and surporting america, they will at some point want to attack england for their part. This is slightly conserning as i live in London and it would most likely be their target. I can only put my hopes on the British intelligence services as any hopes i had in the gvt. got destroyed when they descided to join the war on iraq even after many millions demonstarted aaginst it. It will be interesting to see what happens in our next election, whether peolpe still surport blair or labour (the new conservatives). I for one will probably vote Liberal although they are a weak party because i would not like to see labour in again. I also hope blair resigns as people have had enough of him and his sweaty armpits. :angry:

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Originally posted by oldmancan+16 March 2004 - 14:21--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (oldmancan @ 16 March 2004 - 14:21)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-j2k4@15 March 2004 - 08:40
What do you think?

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Aye, there&#39;s the rub.

j2k4, You got what you asked for ... not that you have to like it or agree.

[/b][/quote]
True enough, but the thread wandered a bit, as is the tendency.

The theme was re-defined by lefty; something to do with what I regard as a deliberate mis-interpretation of my posting, and others picked up on it.

Marc jumped in, rather adamantly-owing to the tragic loss of his friend, no doubt.

Hobbes&#39; posts seemed to me to indicate he understood what I meant (not that he agreed-he just suffers the impediment of being American, too); but lefty, after his own fashion, chose to attribute to me sentiments I do not hold.

If I object, then I am getting what I asked for?

I asked for thoughts, not the standard ad hominum attack.

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Originally posted by j2k4+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The theme was re-defined by lefty; something to do with what I regard as a deliberate mis-interpretation of my posting, and others picked up on it.
....
but lefty, after his own fashion, chose to attribute to me sentiments I do not hold.[/b]

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Originally posted by leftism+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (leftism)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>To make it explicitly honest lets go over your post again.

You offered 2 options.

<!--QuoteBegin-j2k4@

My point is that:
1. The Spanish electorate either was much less-than-enamored of Aznar than was assumed, and/or:

2. They were struck by fear and awe of the attack to the extent they chose, in a rather expedited sense, to cast a vote they would not have, otherwise.

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Aznar would have lost anyway or the Spanish are cowards. Thats exactly what you said. There is nothing intellectually dishonest about my summation of your point.[/b][/quote]

And you have the audacity to accuse ME of intellectual dishonesty??? This situation reminds of something you said in another thread.

<!--QuoteBegin-j2k4

Realize you will not change the mind(s) of your debate opponent(s). Your fulminations and illuminations should be constructed with a mind toward swaying or convincing or enlightening the reader/follower/occasional contributor of/to the thread.[/quote]

I&#39;m quite happy to let people read your accusations, read my summation of your points and then decide for themselves who is the dishonest one with ulterior motives.

Again.. let me know when/if your ready to return to the topic, but make sure you pick up on the various points in my previous post if you choose to do so.

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Originally posted by leftism@16 March 2004 - 15:29
I&#39;m quite happy to let people read your accusations, read my summation of your points and then decide for themselves who is the dishonest one with ulterior motives.

Again.. let me know when/if your ready to return to the topic, but make sure you pick up on the various points in my previous post if you choose to do so.

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My posting stands, as yours, for the judgement of the members.

The points you claim to have made certainly don&#39;t come at my expense; I could have written a "book", too, but that strategy has revealed itself to be a turn-off to potential posters.

Your mere stating of the obvious (The voters in Spain got rid of the party which led them into Iraq) doesn&#39;t make me the bad guy, lefty, nor do your continued taking of liberties with my supposed "intent".

If you believe so firmly that I am the embodiment of evil, and that you are the cure, I suggest you start a thread to that effect, and solicit opinions.

I won&#39;t object; indeed, if you choose to do so, I wish to communicate to the mods that I wouldn&#39;t mind one bit-in fact, I desire it greatly.

Call it an experiment. ;)