Should the American automakers...

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Originally Posted by j2k4

...receive a government (read taxpayer-funded) bailout.

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Hell no.

If a company is having a horrible downturn, the workers can't continue to make the same boatload of money. If the unions are going to continue to push for the same pay then the company will go bankrupt.

I'm pro-union but in this case they are fools.

American cars, for the most part, suck. American styling, for the most part, has sucked ass for years. I remember seeing cars that looked like it had window blinds for the grill. The car otherwise looked okay (Ford Five-Hundred or Focus maybe).

One thing is that individual American car companies have brands that compete with others under the same parent company. There are also too many body swaps. I get tired of seeing a Mercury truck and it's the same as a Ford truck with minor cosmetic differences and almost the same price tag.

Today I heard Nancy Pelosi talking about some appointment of Car Czar for this bailout.

Howz telling the bailout to fuck off along with Czar?

These companies should go bankrupt if necessary and then reorganize with a solid plan. A bailout makes the incentive for the plan to be solid unnecessary in the near term.

Ford has sucked for years. Their stock has been $10 for years. I even have well running Ford made product partly because I wanted to buy American. The boneheads at Ford decided to stop making the model car I own

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/...5201990002.jpg

with some body swapped Mercury Milan/Lincoln MKZ shit

http://www.carbuyersnotebook.com/arc...LincolnMKZ.jpg

I liked my car so much, I was ready to buy the same car again and it has had
a loyal following.

Nice going.

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Originally Posted by Busyman

Ford has sucked for years. Their stock has been $10 for years.

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Ironic then that Ford is probably the healthiest of the Big Three, isn't it?

Chrysler, having already once enjoyed government largesse (yes, I know- they paid it back...big deal), immediately went back to their old ways, apparently having learned nothing from their first near-death experience.
They can just wither up and die.

My problem with GM is the arrogance.
Having been king of the hill for decades, GM has actually come to believe the "What's good for GM is good for America" meme and seems to consider itself almost an extension of the government.
No company should be allowed to assume that sort of leverage and for that reason alone I think they should suffer.

I don't really understand the reverence with which we treat the auto industry.
We let the steel industry wither away with hardly a peep.
We let the dotcom bubble burst and I don't recall anyone offering to bailout Pets.com.

Either the American economic template works or it doesn't...if free enterprise is going to be the model then the consequences have to be part of it.
If we're going to nationalize big business, then so be it but this hybrid of the two is just absurd.

We constantly hear about the resilience of the American spirit and the excellence of the American worker, yet when push comes to shove, no one seems confident enough in either to just let them show what they can do.

How are we supposed to encourage a whole new approach while simultaneously propping up the dominant "old school" player?

Why is it that during this whole fiasco we haven't seen any young visionaries from the Big Three, just the same old suits who have fought tooth and nail for decades to preserve a clearly disfunctional business model?

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Originally Posted by clocker

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Busyman

Ford has sucked for years. Their stock has been $10 for years.

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Ironic then that Ford is probably the healthiest of the Big Three, isn't it?

Chrysler, having already once enjoyed government largesse (yes, I know- they paid it back...big deal), immediately went back to their old ways, apparently having learned nothing from their first near-death experience.
They can just wither up and die.

My problem with GM is the arrogance.
Having been king of the hill for decades, GM has actually come to believe the "What's good for GM is good for America" meme and seems to consider itself almost an extension of the government.
No company should be allowed to assume that sort of leverage and for that reason alone I think they should suffer.

I don't really understand the reverence with which we treat the auto industry.
We let the steel industry wither away with hardly a peep.
We let the dotcom bubble burst and I don't recall anyone offering to bailout Pets.com.

Either the American economic template works or it doesn't...if free enterprise is going to be the model then the consequences have to be part of it.
If we're going to nationalize big business, then so be it but this hybrid of the two is just absurd.

We constantly hear about the resilience of the American spirit and the excellence of the American worker, yet when push comes to shove, no one seems confident enough in either to just let them show what they can do.

How are we supposed to encourage a whole new approach while simultaneously propping up the dominant "old school" player?

Why is it that during this whole fiasco we haven't seen any young visionaries from the Big Three, just the same old suits who have fought tooth and nail for decades to preserve a clearly disfunctional business model?

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Boy, you are on a tear, man. :D

I have an agenda.

My theory is that the bankruptcy of the Big Three will be the death knell for NASCAR.

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Originally Posted by clocker

I have an agenda.

My theory is that the bankruptcy of the Big Three will be the death knell for NASCAR.

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A fine idea, but nah.

No factory parts in those things anyway, and there's too much cash flowing from other sources.

We'll see.
I think the major sponsorship money flows from the Big Three.
Even Toyota is hurtin...bet they scale way back also.

After NASCAR, I need to figure out how to destroy Harley-Davidson.

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Originally Posted by clocker

We'll see.
I think the major sponsorship money flows from the Big Three.
Even Toyota is hurtin...bet they scale way back also.

After NASCAR, I need to figure out how to destroy Harley-Davidson.

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Harley-Davidson?

Don't they make tractors?

How's about we end farm subsidies - that oughta do it. ;)

Did you see the numbers released today.

GM and Toyota sold almost precisely the same number of vehicles world-wide this past year - something on the order of 9.37 million units each.

GM lost over 37 billion dollars, while Toyota was over 17 billion in the black...:whistling

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Originally Posted by clocker

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Busyman

Ford has sucked for years. Their stock has been $10 for years.

---

Ironic then that Ford is probably the healthiest of the Big Three, isn't it?

Chrysler, having already once enjoyed government largesse (yes, I know- they paid it back...big deal), immediately went back to their old ways, apparently having learned nothing from their first near-death experience.
They can just wither up and die.

My problem with GM is the arrogance.
Having been king of the hill for decades, GM has actually come to believe the "What's good for GM is good for America" meme and seems to consider itself almost an extension of the government.
No company should be allowed to assume that sort of leverage and for that reason alone I think they should suffer.

I don't really understand the reverence with which we treat the auto industry.
We let the steel industry wither away with hardly a peep.
We let the dotcom bubble burst and I don't recall anyone offering to bailout Pets.com.

Either the American economic template works or it doesn't...if free enterprise is going to be the model then the consequences have to be part of it.
If we're going to nationalize big business, then so be it but this hybrid of the two is just absurd.

We constantly hear about the resilience of the American spirit and the excellence of the American worker, yet when push comes to shove, no one seems confident enough in either to just let them show what they can do.

How are we supposed to encourage a whole new approach while simultaneously propping up the dominant "old school" player?

Why is it that during this whole fiasco we haven't seen any young visionaries from the Big Three, just the same old suits who have fought tooth and nail for decades to preserve a clearly disfunctional business model?

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Great post.

I remember Ford's Motor Credit division propping Ford up. After I sold my stock I remember hearing that it was to be spun off.

One thing that killed the American car industry was it's stupifying truck glut. Not that Toyota didn't up it's truck selection too but it at least made better vehicles as a whole.

As a slight aside, this E85 crap needs to be canned as well. Alternative fuel that basically costs the same as our current standard of fuel, gets worse mileage, and drives up corn costs in other industries needs to go.

The car companies have been fighting for years to not have to make more fuel efficient cars. Now their lack of foresight is biting them in the ass among other factors.

"Hey instead of making cars more fuel efficient, lets put R&D into making them run on different fuel that is no better."

Nice going.

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Originally Posted by clocker

I have an agenda.

My theory is that the bankruptcy of the Big Three will be the death knell for NASCAR.

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Good idea.

NASCAR sucks anyway. A constant of left turns and maybe a crash-can one bother to get up from watching this shit on TV and not miss something?

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Originally Posted by Busyman

"Hey instead of making cars more fuel efficient, lets put R&D into making them run on different fuel that is no better."

Nice going.

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That's just it...there is minimal R&D required to run ethanol- change a few seals, maybe tweak the injector sizes a bit, modify the fuel maps and voila!, you have a "green" car.
Nobody cared where the ethanol came from- and the corn belt farmers were thrilled with the subsidy- it was just too easy to resist.

Stupidly shortsighted but that's been our "energy policy" for a long time.