sparsely fights the urge to post a picture of a famous movie whale in this thread. :helpsmile:
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sparsely fights the urge to post a picture of a famous movie whale in this thread. :helpsmile:
I'm sorry...but I see absolutly NO logic in your debate. So something knows what is going to happen, that doesn't make you confined to anything. Think about it at a much smaller scale. My girlfriend get jelouse very easily, often resulting in anger. My ex-girlfriend shows up at a party and gives me a hug. Now... I predict that my girlfriend is going to yell at me later. Wow...on the ride home...her anger comes out. She had a choice on how she was going to handle that. From what I knew about her, I predicted what was going to happen and I was right. Me making that prediction in no way changed her free will. It in no way affected how she chose to act. That was all her own doing. Well...if God is Omniscient, then he knows more about ourselves then we know about ourselves. He knew exactly how she was going to react, and exactly what she was going to say simply because he had all the information he could ever need to calculate what how things were going to turn out. He knows how much of her crap I can take and knows when I'm going to say enough is enough. He knows that we are going to go out to eat at a certain restaurant because he knows we used to go there all the time and we haven't gone for awhile. He knows that a hot waitress needed extra hours so she took over a co-workers shift. He knows what table were going to sit at because he knows why everyone else is going the same restaurant and the order that they are going to be seated and when they are going to leave. He knows that I'm a friendly person so that when the hot waitress comes over, I'm going to smile as I hand her the menu after ordering. He knows my girlfriend is gonna see that smile and freak out. And he knows that I'm going to break up with her the next day. How does he know that I'm going to wait until the next day? Because he knows me that well. Now....at no point did he ever do anything to effect anyones free will. He just knew what was going to happen with 100% detail because he knows everything else there is to know with 100% detail. He knows how everything is going to effect everything because he knows everything.
If God knows everything that has ever happened and that is ever going to happen, what was the point of him actually bothering to make the universe in the first place?Quote:
Originally posted by dwightfry@19 May 2004 - 08:59
Well...if God is Omniscient, then he knows more about ourselves then we know about ourselves. He knew exactly how she was going to react, and exactly what she was going to say simply because he had all the information he could ever need to calculate what how things were going to turn out. He knows how much of her crap I can take and knows when I'm going to say enough is enough. He knows that we are going to go out to eat at a certain restaurant because he knows we used to go there all the time and we haven't gone for awhile. He knows that a hot waitress needed extra hours so she took over a co-workers shift. He knows what table were going to sit at because he knows why everyone else is going the same restaurant and the order that they are going to be seated and when they are going to leave. He knows that I'm a friendly person so that when the hot waitress comes over, I'm going to smile as I hand her the menu after ordering. He knows my girlfriend is gonna see that smile and freak out. And he knows that I'm going to break up with her the next day. How does he know that I'm going to wait until the next day? Because he knows me that well. Now....at no point did he ever do anything to effect anyones free will. He just knew what was going to happen with 100% detail because he knows everything else there is to know with 100% detail. He knows how everything is going to effect everything because he knows everything.
Is he just trying to prove himself right? If so then logically (sic) God must have a sense of self-doubt, and hence does not really know everything, only thinks that he does (or assumes he does, believes he does, etc...)
:blink:
Did he know I was going to use a smiley I've never used before? We shall see...
:fear2:
I know that if she reads this you are in big trouble. :DQuote:
Originally posted by dwightfry@19 May 2004 - 08:59
I'm sorry...but I see absolutly NO logic in your debate. So something knows what is going to happen, that doesn't make you confined to anything. Think about it at a much smaller scale. My girlfriend get jelouse very easily, often resulting in anger. My ex-girlfriend shows up at a party and gives me a hug. Now... I predict that my girlfriend is going to yell at me later. Wow...on the ride home...her anger comes out. She had a choice on how she was going to handle that. From what I knew about her, I predicted what was going to happen and I was right. Me making that prediction in no way changed her free will. It in no way affected how she chose to act. That was all her own doing. Well...if God is Omniscient, then he knows more about ourselves then we know about ourselves. He knew exactly how she was going to react, and exactly what she was going to say simply because he had all the information he could ever need to calculate what how things were going to turn out. He knows how much of her crap I can take and knows when I'm going to say enough is enough. He knows that we are going to go out to eat at a certain restaurant because he knows we used to go there all the time and we haven't gone for awhile. He knows that a hot waitress needed extra hours so she took over a co-workers shift. He knows what table were going to sit at because he knows why everyone else is going the same restaurant and the order that they are going to be seated and when they are going to leave. He knows that I'm a friendly person so that when the hot waitress comes over, I'm going to smile as I hand her the menu after ordering. He knows my girlfriend is gonna see that smile and freak out. And he knows that I'm going to break up with her the next day. How does he know that I'm going to wait until the next day? Because he knows me that well. Now....at no point did he ever do anything to effect anyones free will. He just knew what was going to happen with 100% detail because he knows everything else there is to know with 100% detail. He knows how everything is going to effect everything because he knows everything.
And it's not even my turn to play God.
Actually she doesn't exist at the moment. :( :PQuote:
I know that if she reads this you are in big trouble.
I actually have my own beliefs on that. Everything posted before was my understanding of generic religios beliefs. It isn't actually what I believe really. In the beginning God was all there was. Being omniscient, he can obviously comprehend his own power but never really experience it. I can comprehend what it would be like to win the lottery, but that isn't the same as experiencing it. So...he took part of himself and turned it into souls. Souls, having been part of God also have the same powers as God but simply aren't as powerful as God. So now God can experience his true power by ruling over the souls. He's happy. But now the souls have the same problem. They are powerful and can comprehend there power but never experience it. So life was created. The soul chooses everything about your life before you are born, your sex, if you have a handicap, what kind of parents you have, all that. When you are born, your soul forgets everything and just experiences the life that they created. It is through experiencing life without the powers, they can experience their true power when we pass.Quote:
If God knows everything that has ever happened and that is ever going to happen, what was the point of him actually bothering to make the universe in the first place?
The same idea as if nothing was bad then how would you know what was good? How could you truly understand what you have?
From all the theory's I've heard on God, this one seemed to make the most sense to me. It seemed to answer the most, previously unanswerable, questions.
i just got it - free willieQuote:
Originally posted by Mr JP Fugley+19 May 2004 - 09:21--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mr JP Fugley @ 19 May 2004 - 09:21)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Sparsely@19 May 2004 - 08:45
sparsely fights the urge to post a picture of a famous movie whale in this thread. :helpsmile:
:lol: :lol: :lol:[/b][/quote]
Free Willie!!!!!
http://www.mmnet.cz/simpsons/images/misc/fbi-willie.jpg
(According to the mugshot, Willie is over 6 feet tall. I never would have guessed)
Why do you people keep misinterpreting me and keep refering to things that I never said? :huh:
I never said your beliefs were illogical. Beliefs are convictions that can either be logical or illogical. There are no ways to prove if they are logical or illogical, true or false. This is why they are called beliefs. I respect your beliefs and I'm sure you respect mine (I think I said this before, I'm agnostic).Quote:
The fact that you do not understand the entire universe and it's workings does not make other people's beliefs illogical.
If I were to say that your beliefs are stupid and wrong and mine were right, then I would sure be an arrogant bastard since I don't have any way of proving it.
Like I said before, I'm not claiming I'm right and everyone else is wrong. I can be wrong, God can be omniscient and we can still have free will. But from a logical point of view I still haven't seen anything to support that view.
I could say the same thing about you. How can you try to define a supernatural being who is capable of defying all logic, by using logical terms with logical definitions (omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent), coined by finite and fallible humans? You, as a human, are also susceptible of being wrong when defining God the way you do.Quote:
Like I said, you are trying to explain the workings of the infinite within the framework of the finite (very much so) that simply cannot work.
It is not my intention to offend anyone's beliefs. If I did I apologise.Quote:
I like your posting style, familiar as it is. These repetitive diatribes must take quite a while to put together. At least it is not so rude this way.
As to my posting style, I'm sorry I can't be more eloquent, but English is not my first language. Perhaps that's why I'm constantly being misinterpreted. :unsure:
Who knows?Quote:
Speak to the frog, ask him about the internal combustion engine. Does he understand it yet.
Perhaps if you give the frog a few million years of learning, you might be surprised.
To dwightfry and his/her (perhaps too much :D ) detailed explanation:
You just proved my point again!
If an omniscient God knows everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, about you or anyone else, then he sure knew all about your future and your choices even before you were born. We agree on this, right? I will assume so.
I'm not saying he will force you in doing something you don't want to.
I'm saying that for him to "see" your future and your choices, they have to be already pre-determined by God since he can't be wrong in his predictions of your future. What he "sees" is what will happen, no matter what.
If you can't escape his predictions (if you did, you would prove that God isn't omniscient, which is impossible because he IS God and he IS omniscient) then you are confined to the future that he foresaw.
If you are confined to an already foreseen future (pre-determined), then you can't possibly have free will. What seems like choice to you is simply an illusion.
That's the conclusion that I also came up with. An omniscient God implies that he knows everything beforehand, which leads to the mind puzzling paradox described in your question.Quote:
If God knows everything that has ever happened and that is ever going to happen, what was the point of him actually bothering to make the universe in the first place?
I'm afraid this is not for me or any human to come up with an answer. That question can only be answered by God himself/herself/itself if he/she/it exists.
I agree 100%. This is why no one can say he/she is absolutely right, since in a near future, better theories or new evidence can debunk the old theories completely.Quote:
Try to explain the Universe in terms of Newtonian Physics, you can't because the physics is wrong. It seems right in a very limited way. However as our knowledge of the universe expanded then it became obvious that Newton got it wrong in a number of ways. It was "right" within the limited ability to observe and record at that time, but it was not right for the whole universe, so we had to move on to new understanding.
Fair enough. But the same applies to you. Which tools did you use to understand and define God the way you do?Quote:
Now try to explain the working of God in terms of human understanding of time and space. Nah, that doesn't work any better than the attempt to explain spacetime purely in terms of Newtonian physics.
The point is that you cannot understand or explain those things which you do not have the tools to understand or explain.
Let's be reasonable here. You and I are speculating. Saying that God is omniscient is a logical speculation. I merely applied some more logic into that speculation.
Again the misinterpretations.Quote:
So to deny the existence of God based on playground "logic" is an exercise in arrogance and futility.
You either didn't read, in full, my previous posts or I'm as lousy as I think I am when expressing myself in English (it's probably the latter :frusty: ).
In all my posts I've been trying to say that the existence of an omniscient God can't co-exist with free will.
What does this mean to you?
To me it means that God can still exist. He can be omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent, but if this is true, humans can't have free will.
If you believe in God then I'm sure you won't be worried in having free will or not, since ultimately "it's all in the hands of God", like people usually say.
:D He also doesn't seem all that muscled, but when he tears his clothes apart... :DQuote:
(According to the mugshot, Willie is over 6 feet tall. I never would have guessed)
http://club.telepolis.com/iivangm/imgnes/willie1.gif
... Willie frees himself. :lol:
I believe that both exist, you said that logically they cannot both exist.Quote:
This is why if you want to keep your belief in an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent God creator of all things, you will have to discard the possibility of human free will, since, in a logical point of view, both can't co-exist.
You described my belief as being illogical.
People do understand what you are saying, it's just that you are wrong. It is not illogical to believe that free will can exist in the presence of an omniscient being. Just because you cannot explain it does not make it illogical. It just makes it beyond your understanding.
I said earlier, any being who does not have these attributes is not God. I am not placing attributes on God, I am describing what I understand Him to be.Quote:
by using logical terms with logical definitions (omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent), coined by finite and fallible humans? You, as a human, are also susceptible of being wrong when defining God the way you do.
What do you mean by logical terms with logical definitions btw. These are words with meanings, what has logic got to do with it. Again I think you may see logic as some sort of magic word.
And perhaps in a few million years we may be advanced enough to have a better understanding of the nature of God. This is my point, like the frog we are not at that stage, but one day ....Quote:
QUOTE
Speak to the frog, ask him about the internal combustion engine. Does he understand it yet.
Who knows?
Perhaps if you give the frog a few million years of learning, you might be surprised.
I'm just not getting ya.
So, just explain this to me. How does my knowing that my girlfriend is going to get mad take away her 'ability or discretion to choose' to get mad? How is her choice 'constrained by external circumstances?'Quote:
free will
n.
1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
God, being the omniscient being that he is, also knew that she was going to get mad.
So...even you say it isn't effected by an 'agency such as fate or divine will'.Quote:
I'm not saying he will force you in doing something you don't want to.
Where's the problem?!? :blink:
(B.T.W. I think your english is fine....better then mine even, and it's my only language)
To me your belief is illogical. To you it is logical. Just because it sounds illogical to me doesn't mean I'm right and everyone else is wrong.Quote:
I believe that both exist, you said that logically they cannot both exist.
You described my belief as being illogical.
People do understand what you are saying, it's just that you are wrong. It is not illogical to believe that free will can exist in the presence of an omniscient being. Just because you cannot explain it does not make it illogical. It just makes it beyond your understanding.
I already said over and over that I could be wrong. It's just that you "seem" wrong to me, but eventually you could be right.
When I started the topic I was hoping that people could put aside their emotions towards their beliefs and simply analyze the theory in a logical way.
But you clearly failed in doing that when you state, and I will quote again: "it's just that you are wrong."
If you are so convinced that you are right and I'm wrong, then could you please explain me how can both an omniscient God and free will possibly co-exist? I would be glad if you could enlighten me. :huh:
If you say that it's possible but we just can't understand it, then I will use the same argument on you and say that an omniscient God and free will can't possibly co-exist; you just can't understand it.
The problem is that you DO understand what I'm saying since it does follow logical thought. You simply refuse to accept it. But that's fine, we have different points of view and different beliefs. I'm not here trying to "force" or "convert" anyone into my beliefs. I'm merely exposing a theory.
True. The current definition of God, coined by humans, is an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent being. If he lacks one of those attributes he can no longer be called God according to the current definition. But the definition may change and you can still call him God even though he lacks some attributes. I'm getting carried away, this is just a semantics problem. :DQuote:
I said earlier, any being who does not have these attributes is not God. I am not placing attributes on God, I am describing what I understand Him to be.
Tell me, do you really understand God to be that way, or you just picked up the definition of God from others, and accepted it. There's a very big difference between understanding God by yourself and accepting what other people understand of God.
If you do understand God by yourself, and that leads you to the definition that was already coined by others, I would like to know how you did it, so I can also try to understand him the way you do.
Words, or terms, are logical definitions (multiple words) combined into just one. Instead of saying "someone or something that knows everything; having total knowledge; knowing everything" you simply say "omniscient".Quote:
What do you mean by logical terms with logical definitions btw. These are words with meanings, what has logic got to do with it. Again I think you may see logic as some sort of magic word.
If I tell you that God is hrgtgdjhjtss you will not understand (neither do I for that matter) because that is not a word, or better yet, it is not a term with a logical definition.
The "meaning" that you referred to, IS the logical definition behind a word.
So as you can see, logic isn't that magical after all. You use logic to write and to think.
So you agree with me that if proper time and thought is given to unknown subjects, they can eventually be understood to a certain extent.Quote:
And perhaps in a few million years we may be advanced enough to have a better understanding of the nature of God. This is my point, like the frog we are not at that stage, but one day ....
So after all you also agree with me in that logic can be applied in the understanding of a complex being such as God. It might be difficult, but it's possible.
But I'm still puzzled.
What makes you so sure that we are not coming about at "that stage"?
What would be necessary to reach "that stage"?
Better yet, what is "that stage"?
Some years ago no one would have thought that the "computer age" was just around the corner, until Alan Turing published his book "On Computable Numbers (...)".
It seemed like any other normal day, but something had already changed...
Ok first of all, you can't use yourself as an example since you're not omniscient.Quote:
How does my knowing that my girlfriend is going to get mad take away her 'ability or discretion to choose' to get mad? How is her decision 'constrained by external circumstances?'
God, being the omniscient being that he is, also knew that she was going to get mad.
Imagine that God predicted that she would get mad, but she actually didn't!
If God predicted one thing and the outcome was completely different, then God would have to be wrong; he would have to be surprised by the fact that she didn't got mad, unlike his prediction. She would really have free will.
Then you might ask the question:
But wait a minute, isn't God supposed to ALWAYS be right and NEVER be wrong?
Yes, of course! An omniscient God has to be right ALL THE TIME!
This leads us to the fact that she simply HAS to get mad because that was God's prediction of the future.
God's predictions HAVE to be her future, otherwise God would be wrong and that is impossible, if he is omniscient.
If she has to follow God's predictions then it is all pre-determined from the start.
If her future was already pre-determined, then she had no choice: she had to get mad at you, no matter what. If you can't choose your destiny, then you have no free will.
Being forced to do something and doing something because you "had to" or "you were meant to", are different things.Quote:
So...even you say it isn't effected by an 'agency such as fate or divine will'.
If God is responsible for a pre-determined future, then he is indirectly responsible for your choices (although not forcing you, he just makes you that way).