Re: Is nationalism dead ?
as far as leagues----yes
not for the world cup though, everyone returns to there home country.
Re: Is nationalism dead ?
Duh :ermm:
obviously, do you think ex-expatriates will play for national teams or what. :sick:
Re: Is nationalism dead ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BawA
Duh :ermm:
obviously, do you think ex-expatriates will play for national teams or what. :sick:
Then duh, a professional team is just that.
The aim isn't nationalism. It's to win.:dry:
I think it's stupid to eliminate others from playing on professional team based on nationality.
Are these teams solely owned by the government?
If not then the government should fuck off and teams should be allowed to continue seeking out the best players available.
Re: Is nationalism dead ?
i never said to eliminate(can yo find that i said), all am asking is a pro club shouldnt come to stage where no local player is among it, as Blatter said atleast 5 local players should be among it.
if clubs stop hiring local players then a national teams soon wont have any body to play with, local talent will just disappear since national team doesn't play much and soon there will be no national team and then no WorldCup. nobody will put his time on something which pays by matches, national teams are seasonal.
Re: Is nationalism dead ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BawA
i never said to eliminate(can yo find that i said), all am asking is a pro club shouldnt come to stage where no local player is among it, as Blatter said atleast 5 local players should be among it.
if clubs stop hiring local players then a national teams soon wont have any body to play with, local talent will just disappear since national team doesn't play much and soon there will be no national team and then no WorldCup. nobody will put his time on something which pays by matches, national teams are seasonal.
That makes no sense to me.
People play for a national team for patriotism not money (well there are endorsements).
I'd be very surprised if the Italians playing for an English club don't wanna play for Italy when it comes time and similar for an Englishman playing for an Italian club.
What you propose is in direct contrast to the free market and making a living. It's downright unAmerican.........:pinch:
Re: Is nationalism dead ?
i know what you mean for Example my cities team Guadalajara FC is the only team in
Mexico that has only Mexican nationals ,but i think if all teams did this it would take away from the beauty of the sport i can´t picture Barcelona playing at the level they do with oot any of the non spanish team members or any team for that matter
Re: Is nationalism dead ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Busyman
The aim isn't nationalism. It's to win.:dry:
I think it's stupid to eliminate others from playing on professional team based on nationality.
Although I agree, what's the point in keeping a cities name, if they don't represent it anymore? :blink:
Re: Is nationalism dead ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Busyman
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BawA
i never said to eliminate(can yo find that i said), all am asking is a pro club shouldnt come to stage where no local player is among it, as Blatter said atleast 5 local players should be among it.
if clubs stop hiring local players then a national teams soon wont have any body to play with, local talent will just disappear since national team doesn't play much and soon there will be no national team and then no WorldCup. nobody will put his time on something which pays by matches, national teams are seasonal.
That makes no sense to me.
People play for a national team for patriotism not money (well there are endorsements).
I'd be very surprised if the Italians playing for an English club don't wanna play for Italy when it comes time and similar for an Englishman playing for an Italian club.
What you propose is in direct contrast to the free market and making a living. It's downright unAmerican.........:pinch:
do you think those who play for national teams are selected from street or what? they are selected from the local clubs, if local club stop using local talents and stop finding new face soon there will be no new resources to put in commission for national team and nobody will put his time exclusively on a national team because as i said its not a fixed job its seasonal, also there is no national team which has a permanent timetable. you may say they're also selected from foreign clubs but majority of players start their career from local clubs then move.
for now you may think there is enough local players to choose from but once they loss their edge and youth who do you think national team will select from and clubs dont hire/train them any more.
Quote:
i know what you mean for Example my cities team Guadalajara FC is the only team in
Mexico that has only Mexican nationals ,but i think if all teams did this it would take away from the beauty of the sport i can´t picture Barcelona playing at the level they do with oot any of the non spanish team members or any team for that matter
again, i didnt say to play with locals only all am saying is to give hidden talents a chance to show up.
sport was a beauty, now days its all about the Benjamin's, they dont want to represent any1, way or other they want to win to cash in more.
Re: Is nationalism dead ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BawA
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Busyman
That makes no sense to me.
People play for a national team for patriotism not money (well there are endorsements).
I'd be very surprised if the Italians playing for an English club don't wanna play for Italy when it comes time and similar for an Englishman playing for an Italian club.
What you propose is in direct contrast to the free market and making a living. It's downright unAmerican.........:pinch:
do you think those who play for national teams are selected from street or what? they are selected from the local clubs, if local club stop using local talents and stop finding new face soon there will be no new resources to put in commission for national team and nobody will put his time exclusively on a national team because as i said its not a fixed job its seasonal, also there is no national team which has a permanent timetable. you may say they're also selected from foreign clubs but majority of players start their career from local clubs then move.
for now you may think there is enough local players to choose from but once they loss their edge and youth who do you think national team will select from and clubs dont hire/train them any more.
Quote:
i know what you mean for Example my cities team Guadalajara FC is the only team in
Mexico that has only Mexican nationals ,but i think if all teams did this it would take away from the beauty of the sport i can´t picture Barcelona playing at the level they do with oot any of the non spanish team members or any team for that matter
again, i didnt say to play with locals only all am saying is to give hidden talents a chance to show up.
sport was a beauty, now days its all about the Benjamin's, they dont want to represent any1, way or other they want to win to cash in more.
Again you are mixing national team and professional teams then.
It is the professional team's job to pick from the best talent out there to win. There are already restrictions in place regarding foreign players and many times the local players demand way more money....if you wanna talk about Benjamins
You propose some local quota as if local players don't get a chance. I think it's bullshit to say hire a local player if he's not good enough or costs way too much.
Last time I checked Arsenal was called just that and not England.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p-h-x
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Busyman
The aim isn't nationalism. It's to win.:dry:
I think it's stupid to eliminate others from playing on professional team based on nationality.
Although I agree, what's the point in keeping a cities name, if they don't represent it anymore? :blink:
Oh so Arsenal and Chelsea have to have folks from London and Man U has to have folks from Manchester?
Yeah that makes a ton of sense.
Re: Is nationalism dead ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by busy
Again you are mixing national team and professional teams then.
It is the professional team's job to pick from the best talent out there to win. There are already restrictions in place regarding foreign players and many times the local players demand way more money....if you wanna talk about Benjamins
You propose some local quota as if local players don't get a chance. I think it's bullshit to say hire a local player if he's not good enough or costs way too much.
Last time I checked Arsenal was called just that and not England.
just tell me something, if a local team(pro team) of a country doesn't go out to discover some of his local talent or even stop hiring them because foreign resources are available at request do you think other country's will do that for them? not everybody's luck is like Messi, Messi and Jovani's cases are 1 in 1000's, even this is also very risky, jovani was almost taken by Spanish national team cuz he wasnt playing for Mexico's national and he got Spanish nationality and he was eligible to play for them, soon Mexico woke up and called him for his 1st match to deny span the right to do the same.
a club must give local talents a chance to showup if not nobody will discover them and a good national team soon will become out-preformed by other country, just look at Uruguay, they had won 2 WC's but now nobody even recognize them, because they stopped looking for new faces at one point, they thought those faces at that time are going to last forever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy
Oh so Arsenal and Chelsea have to have folks from London and Man U has to have folks from Manchester?
Yeah that makes a ton of sense.
if you knew little about these clubs you wouldn't say that, do you know Arsenal's history.
Arsenal was founded as a amature team, it was formed by local railway labors folks and was named " Dial square", it is now that things changed, as i said its all about the Benjamin's now days.
Re: Is nationalism dead ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BawA
just tell me something, if a local team(pro team) of a country doesn't go out
to discover some of his local talent or even stop hiring them because foreign resources are available at request do you think other country's will do that for them? not everybody's luck is like Messi, Messi and Jovani's cases are 1 in 1000's, even this is also very risky, jovani was almost taken by Spanish national team cuz he wasnt playing for Mexico's national and he got Spanish nationality and he was eligible to play for them, soon Mexico woke up and called him for his 1st match to deny span the right to do the same.
a club must give local talents a chance to showup if not nobody will discover them and a good national team soon will become out-preformed by other country, just look at Uruguay, they had won 2 WC's but now nobody even recognize them, because they stopped looking for new faces at one point, they thought those faces at that time are going to last forever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy
Oh so Arsenal and Chelsea have to have folks from London and Man U has to have folks from Manchester?
Yeah that makes a ton of sense.
if you knew little about these clubs you wouldn't say that, do you know Arsenal's history.
Arsenal was founded as a amature team, it was formed by local railway labors folks and was named " Dial square", it is now that things changed, as i said its all about the Benjamin's now days.
I don't have to know Arsenal's history and I don't care if back in the day, a club was totally made up of players from just that city.
You are proposing a rule to stop a club from looking for the best players. If they overlook a local player, a foreign club snaps him up, so be it.
This rule that a club MUST give local talents a chance to show up sounds ludicrous.
Uruguay's missteps are Uruguay's.
A player should have the right to make more money in a free market. A player may play for Arsenal but not England.
Re: Is nationalism dead ?
a players right of making more money, who's denying that, nobody said that they must hold a player at their own countries, our argument is local clubs to provide a better ground for itself and local players, to hire them, to find them, to give them chance then its upto the player whether he wants to stay or not (keeping contract in mind), club at that stage did its patriotic part, again if player plays good and paid good there will be no reason to leave.
i dont blame English clubs, most of them are owned by foreigners and dont care about these things, their sole purpose is to make money.
Quote:
A player should have the right to make more money in a free market. A player may play for Arsenal but not England.
Again this irrelevant to the topic, we are not discussing people who dont want to play for national team, idea is how to make patterns for new talents to be spotted, if not by local clubs then the chances to be scouted by some1 is 1 in 1000(maybe more).
Re: Is nationalism dead ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BawA
a players right of making more money, who's denying that, nobody said that they must hold a player at their own countries, our argument is local clubs to provide a better ground for itself and local players, to hire them, to find them, to give them chance then its upto the player whether he wants to stay or not (keeping contract in mind), club at that stage did its patriotic part, again if player plays good and paid good there will be no reason to leave.
i dont blame English clubs, most of them are owned by foreigners and dont care about these things, their sole purpose is to make money.
Patriotism?
Are we talking pro or national teams?
Also what you propose is not a better ground. You are forcing the local clubs to look for local players.
The job of any professional team is to find the best players, not the best local ones. If they are doing their job scouting local talent, it's pretty fucked up to force them to do so.
Attendance and less revenue should take care of that. In that case, the club's ability to be about the Benjamins is affected.
On the flip, however, if a club comprised totally of foreign players is the best then I'd say the club did their job very well.
Re: Is nationalism dead ?
Quote:
Attendance and less revenue should take care of that. In that case, the club's ability to be about the Benjamins is affected.
i dont see that, for example check your own club LA Galaxy, how the feck you think they are paying that big number to David Beckham and they are playing mostly with locals? did they got effected by letting locals player to play for them?
its all about being famous not being talented, just look at Fabregas playing among arsenal, a very talented person, spans didnt let him play because he wasn't known at that time, look at what his doing in arsenal now, Barcelona instead of paying a dead horse(soon to be) like Henry they could had invested in him.
Quote:
Also what you propose is not a better ground. You are forcing the local clubs to look for local players.
no am asking them to give some attention to their national duties, am asking them to look near before looking far.
pro teams are not foreigners in their own country, they are part of it, giving attention to their society is their duty, people are paying them by giving their time to it, thats why they play, majority of club income comes from inside then foreign invest.
take it as a labor laws, a person working for 30 years for a company automatically gets higher priority over a new guy to let his child join the company when his about to retire.
Re: Is nationalism dead ?
What the hell are you talking about BawA?
Players will play where they like, and can get paid the most. The richer clubs can afford the best players in the world. The National coaches and managers will choose the best in-form players to play for their country, and the best way they can judge this is if they are playing at the highest level for their ability, not in any reserve teams in a mickey mouse league.
It's called market forces, and money rules in Football, especially in England at the moment because of the SKY TV deal.
Anyway, there's more at stake than simply nationalism here, for example a life-long Manchester City fan would probably rather play for Barcelona than for Manchester United...
Re: Is nationalism dead ?
One perceived downside to clubs having teams being made up of all foreign players is the effect it has on the national team. In England's case we probably won't even qualify for Euro 2008, how much of this failure can be attributed to the lack of English players plying their trade in the world's greatest league? Then again would we have the best league if we capped the amount of foreign players in our teams?*
The football authorities would love to force teams to field a set amount of homegrown players but this is a real non-starter due to EU law.
*Also you need to factor in the problem of Engerland just being shite and would lose no matter how many changes you made for their advantage.
Re: Is nationalism dead ?
Quote:
Players will play where they like, and can get paid the most. The richer clubs can afford the best players in the world. The National coaches and managers will choose the best in-form players to play for their country, and the best way they can judge this is if they are playing at the highest level for their ability, not in any reserve teams in a mickey mouse league.
man why cant you understand me, if these players whom you're talking about(best in shape) are not found in 1st place how they can play for any party?
most of these(best in shape) players are found by their local clubs then Shifted to higher levels. your thinking of the current situation where there are available resources not the future, soon if they dont make attention there will be no players to select from for national team. thats why they say Golden Age in football, once you have some good players whom bring country WorldCups or atleast play in a way that you appreciate it but then that age soon will pass by if there is no continues effort to upgrade or keep the level. when was last when England football won anything?
why do you think Argentina and most of the Latin American players are most bought/played players in European Leagues, because their own clubs are in continues effort in producing new talents on regular bases by hiring them so in result they dont run out of the stock, they produce world best football players by letting their own players to play and they show up, you can say its financial thing and they cant afford foreign players, so be it its working.
as i said Messi and Jovani cases are 1 in the 1000's, they were scouted but not every body gets chance to get scouted in result they will dry out if local club dont show some interest in them.
Quote:
Then again would we have the best league if we capped the amount of foreign players in our teams?
almost every known football faces are playing in different league then England's, are they called "world's greatest league".
am sure what "LeftOver" foreign players in England can do Brats them self can do if they get founded.
Re: Is nationalism dead ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BawA
most of these(best in shape) players are found by their local clubs then Shifted to higher levels. your thinking of the current situation where there are available resources not the future, soon if they dont make attention there will be no players to select from for national team. thats why they say Golden Age in football, once you have some good players whom bring country WorldCups or atleast play in a way that you appreciate it but then that age soon will pass by if there is no continues effort to upgrade or keep the level. when was last when England football won anything?
Well, I agree with you there to some extent. The last (only!) thing England won was the 1966 world cup, 41 years ago.
The huge rise in foreign players only really began with the advent of the Premier League in 1992, so you could say England were still shit for 26 years even with their league full of English players :dabs:
The lack of home-grown talent coming through had been a problem before the influx of foreign players. Again it's market forces though - For the clubs it's more cost-effective to buy a couple of foreign players at the peak of their career for an instant payback in terms of on-pitch performance, than to invest heavily in a youth development policy to develop home-grown talent for the future.
I'm not saying I agree with that philosophy, but those are the facts. Also the way it works in this country is that even the most mediocre English players are demanding fantastic wages, and some of the very talented foreigners coming in from Latin America and Eastern Europe for example, are not so demanding in that respect. At least not at first, and if they do very well and get greedy, you can sell them on for a healthy profit :whistling
I blame the FA rather than the clubs really. Well actually I blame SKY TV, but that's really for another discussion :whistling
Re: Is nationalism dead ?
In the past there was a rule only three foreigners could play in a team at the same time.
That was a good rule. You could identify yourself with the club more.
Now it's just the big bucks that count.In the netherlands our clubs have a lot of problems because of the fact there are no limits on foreign players.
My team, Feyenoord Rotterdam has lost their biggest talents at a very young age to foreign clubs.
The past years we lost: van Persie (Arsenal) Kuyt (Liverpool), Kalou (Chelsea), Drenthe (Real Madrid) all were the age of (almost) 20 (except Kuyt). Now we have new young players taht play well, but are already connected to the big teams. Fact is that it is sad for football in general that some teams have superstars sitting on the bench. While they could have played elsewhere. If nothing changes it will be the end of football. In the Netherlands the public for watching TV matches has dropped with almost a quarter in the past two years. One reason our big national stars all play abroad.
It is time that in football something similar is done as in the US sports, a salary cap!
That way it will be more honost, and all clubs will have to do something to educate their own young players. The big stars will play!
Re: Is nationalism dead ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jetje
It is time that in football something similar is done as in the US sports, a salary cap!
That way it will be more honost, and all clubs will have to do something to educate their own young players. The big stars will play!
I was wondering when someone would step up and say...
SALARY CAP
I never liked the fact that baseball doesn't have it.
Some teams are in bigger markets than others and will have the ability for a bigger draw from the get-go.
A salary cap evens that shit out.
One reason the New York Yankee baseball team has had all those championships is because they have had the biggest market.
In the NBA we have had a huge influx of foreign players. This is mainly due to basketball being the fastest growing sport in the world (more foreigners are playing it).
We don't have a problem with that.
As far as the USA Basketball team, I only have a problem because our best players don't play every time the Olympics and World Championships come around.
The fact is also, foreign players have got better becuase of the growth of the sport.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BawA
man why cant you understand me, if these players whom you're talking about(best in shape) are not found in 1st place how they can play for any party?
most of these(best in shape) players are found by their local clubs then Shifted to higher levels. your thinking of the current situation where there are available resources not the future, soon if they dont make attention there will be no players to select from for national team. thats why they say Golden Age in football, once you have some good players whom bring country WorldCups or atleast play in a way that you appreciate it but then that age soon will pass by if there is no continues effort to upgrade or keep the level. when was last when England football won anything?
why do you think Argentina and most of the Latin American players are most bought/played players in European Leagues, because their own clubs are in continues effort in producing new talents on regular bases by hiring them so in result they dont run out of the stock, they produce world best football players by letting their own players to play and they show up, you can say its financial thing and they cant afford foreign players, so be it its working.
as i said Messi and Jovani cases are 1 in the 1000's, they were scouted but not every body gets chance to get scouted in result they will dry out if local club dont show some interest in them.
Quote:
Then again would we have the best league if we capped the amount of foreign players in our teams?
almost every known football faces are playing in different league then England's, are they called "world's greatest league".
am sure what "LeftOver" foreign players in England can do Brats them self can do if they get founded.
Why can't you understand....
Professional teams are supposed to get the best players to win. It is not their job to shop by region.
I'd understand if there was some outsourcing problem that crippled you countries employment rate similar to what have (to a lesser extent) in America.
However, you are merely talking about sport and basically....bragging rights. If your country's infrastructure was totally based on employement of local soccer players then your country has more serious problems.
Re: Is nationalism dead ?
Feel better now people?
not only now you dont get to win anything you dont get to enter the competition in the 1st place, what would be next; losing to India?
am telling you if emergency steps are not taken soon within a decade the inventor of Football will have to retire from the international role and maybe start American Football rugby :sick:
