WTF is P2L?

WTF IS P2L?

Have read quite a few threads, and it seems almost 99% of FileSharingTalk.coms BT Section is confused about this. I have seen some hate threads about sites which they believe are P2L, but are in fact not. The truth of the matter is, there is no BitTorrent tracker in existence today which is Pay2Leech. A few years ago, there was one, but it was spammed, d dosed and hacked out of existence. Anyway Most of you think, ScT, CT, ST, TL, RevTT, etc are Pay2Leech, well let me make it simple, THEY ARE NOT! It doesn't matter who says what, if a user with a grudge says it, or another siteop with a grudge says it. YOU ARE WRONG.

Pay2Leech requires a person to Pay Money to get access to the content. ScT, CT, ST, etc are NOT Pay2Leech. Pay2Leech is like Newsgroups providers and Topsite Access providers, they require money to get access to the content and to be able to download. Just because a site sells GBs like CT or ST doesn't mean they are Pay2Leech. Its strictly an incentive and a thanks to users who donate.

Some of you feel this is wrong, so let me explain to you why it is not. For example: I have a p2p blocked provider which limits my seeding alot less then i would want it to be. I seed for the required minimum time to cancel out Hit & Run but am not able to reach 1:1 on the torrents which i snatch. Well there is good news, my favorite tracker ST is now giving away GBs for my donation to the site funding, the same site funding which lets them bring me new releases at top speeds and at great pres and also keeps the site going for another month. So i donate 20 bucks, my ratio gets to 1:1 and continue download and following the rules of the tracker.. is it still wrong now?

that was a rhetorical question ;)


I know what you are going to say, what about the users that just hit and run and get bad ratio, but then purchase GBs and get their ratio back to normal. The answer to that is, Ban hit and runners then... if you run a tracker and don't even have a hit and run script, what was going through your mind when you opened a tracker?

that was also a rhetorical question ;)

Another thing, i know many of you users are thinking about, what about all the funds that this site gets from these donations incentives, how do i know its going to the right place? Answer, you truly don't know, even if a tracker is not P2L, donations can still be misused, it depends on a trackers ethics, FTN isnt P2L but they dont even tell us how much donations they need, all they have is a percentage counter, and some have no counter, but sites like ScT are quite respectable, after all the accusations from a certain ex-siteop, they came out and explained where every last cent of the site funds went, even brought out the bill they get from nForce Hosting every month, but if a tracker is Donate for Incentive and the site seems to be failing (example: load errors, <2000 torrents, torrent speeds are slow, inactive staff, etc) then its time to start worrying, if this happens, then its quite obvious where the site has gone.

So discuss with me why you hate your supposed "P2L" trackers, and if you don't and I am gonna randomly call our your names, don't think i wont ;) Or hell explain why if you agree.

I love user input. :wub:


:ph34r:| Darkness |:ph34r:

um, newsgroups are not p2l, they are free. You mearly pay to get longer retention from other providers (premium) vs the very short retention of free providers.

well im a site owner, and i have to say we have done this in the past, and might do it occasionally in the future for special occasions.

I wont write and essay like i usually would though as im far to tired.

Reason we stopped it was, we had members hit and running all the time, but we only accept paypal for donations, and as everyone knows, paypal are gits, they will close your account for anything, without even asking ???

so someone donates £25 for VIP (its down to £10 now and you get bonuses on the SP system we have, not gigs for money) they then leech a hell of a lot of torrents without giving back (and yes, we do have a hit and run mod on) we ban them, and countless others like them, they get onto paypal complaining, they get their money back anyway, and after a few paypal close the account, so no more tracker.

Thats the main reason we moved away from it, and we only done 1gig per £1.

other trackers can do what the hell they like for me, im not a member of anywhere else apart from mine. but from my personal standpoint, i believe giving lots of gig away for VIP is wrong, and why?

because its not my BW they are raping, its the uploaders bw they are raping, and whats the point of giving them so much, if you do have a hit and run mod on, whats the point in getting 100`s of gig as a buffer, if you still have to seed everything back to 1:1.

well it turned into a half essay, but thats my view. im not saying that any of them is pay to leech. but i dont see the point in it if you have a strict hit and run policy like we do, for us if we offer it, it will proabably be used to buy a higher class.

PU is 1.5 ratio
SPU is 2.05 ratio and you can upload requests.

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Originally Posted by Tokeman

um, newsgroups are not p2l, they are free. You mearly pay to get longer retention from other providers (premium) vs the very short retention of free providers.

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majority of users pay since its not provided by there isp, there are a few which give it to their users, but not a significant amount.

there are still free providers out there, they just suck because no one wants crappy retention. Back in the day, there were more quality free providers. Just because retention is what people want doesn't mean its all p2l, users wanted more retention, and that costs $$$ for storage space.

Edit: i'm not against what you've said, just clarifying my point on newsgroups.

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Originally Posted by stoi

well im a site owner, and i have to say we have done this in the past, and might do it occasionally in the future for special occasions.

I wont write and essay like i usually would though as im far to tired.

Reason we stopped it was, we had members hit and running all the time, but we only accept paypal for donations, and as everyone knows, paypal are gits, they will close your account for anything, without even asking ???

so someone donates £25 for VIP (its down to £10 now and you get bonuses on the SP system we have, not gigs for money) they then leech a hell of a lot of torrents without giving back (and yes, we do have a hit and run mod on) we ban them, and countless others like them, they get onto paypal complaining, they get their money back anyway, and after a few paypal close the account, so no more tracker.

Thats the main reason we moved away from it, and we only done 1gig per £1.

other trackers can do what the hell they like for me, im not a member of anywhere else apart from mine. but from my personal standpoint, i believe giving lots of gig away for VIP is wrong, and why?

because its not my BW they are raping, its the uploaders bw they are raping, and whats the point of giving them so much, if you do have a hit and run mod on, whats the point in getting 100`s of gig as a buffer, if you still have to seed everything back to 1:1.

well it turned into a half essay, but thats my view. im not saying that any of them is pay to leech. but i dont see the point in it if you have a strict hit and run policy like we do, for us if we offer it, it will proabably be used to buy a higher class.

PU is 1.5 ratio
SPU is 2.05 ratio and you can upload requests.

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I dont know about VIP, it depends on if VIPs get special treatment like gbs, freeleech etc.

And there are ways to avoid paypal disputes such as including a terms on your donation page and making the user click it (Agree to it) before they get their incentives.

And like you said, i feel for the uploaders who spend the money on b/w but its its better to get them out then keep em in allowing more b/w for other users.

It matters to a limit, a 100Gb buffer is nothing considering ive had over 15TBs of buffers on various sites, but i still made it my duty to seed the minimum amount of time if i did not reach 1:1 on the torrent.

First of all, let me say you formatted your opinion nicely and phrased it nicely as well; It's good to see quality posts from time to time. Secondly, I do not necessarily hate P2L systems, but i, like you, have the same problem of traffic shaping from my ISP, which makes building up a ratio an utter pain. Of course countless sites have the P2L system which is "Fix your ratio by paying", and i stated before, i have no problem with that. But sometimes i would rather keep my money for something personal, making me not leech from some specific sites until my financial problems are solved, which is quite annoying.

I heard about FTN's new approach towards ratio (Which is basically abolishing ratios.), and i must say i promote systems like that, as they are highly user friendly. I guess all in all it's a choice, as an Admin, between user satisfaction or keeping your site alive. I could elaborate much more on this issue, but that would be quite unnecessary. All i can say is that i like to stay neutral in this issue, but i am being pulled towards FTN's idea of Ratio/Donation system.

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Originally Posted by Tokeman

there are still free providers out there, they just suck because no one wants crappy retention. Back in the day, there were more quality free providers. Just because retention is what people want doesn't mean its all p2l, users wanted more retention, and that costs $$$ for storage space.

Edit: i'm not against what you've said, just clarifying my point on newsgroups.

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Noted and i agree to an extent, but it comes down to the fact, that you are paying to download, you have the option of sticking to a free provider but you are choosing to pay for something better.

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Originally Posted by stoi

whats the point in getting 100`s of gig as a buffer, if you still have to seed everything back to 1:1.

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very true. this is what some buffer seedbox wankers really don't understand

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Originally Posted by Trexx

First of all, let me say you formatted your opinion nicely and phrased it nicely as well; It's good to see quality posts from time to time. Secondly, I do not necessarily hate P2L systems, but i, like you, have the same problem of traffic shaping from my ISP, which makes building up a ratio an utter pain. Of course countless sites have the P2L system which is "Fix your ratio by paying", and i stated before, i have no problem with that. But sometimes i would rather keep my money for something personal, making me not leech from some specific sites until my financial problems are solved, which is quite annoying.

I heard about FTN's new approach towards ratio (Which is basically abolishing ratios.), and i must say i promote systems like that, as they are highly user friendly. I guess all in all it's a choice, as an Admin, between user satisfaction or keeping your site alive. I could elaborate much more on this issue, but that would be quite unnecessary. All i can say is that i like to stay neutral in this issue, but i am being pulled towards FTN's idea of Ratio/Donation system.

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Thank you

but with when you say "But sometimes i would rather keep my money for something personal, making me not leech from some specific sites until my financial problems are solved, which is quite annoying." no torrent site forces you to pay, you have the option to get your ratio back to a respectable one but thats it, they dont require you to pay to keep your account and to keep downloading. And i agree FTN has implimented a fantastic and unique idea. Its not something i would personally do, but it seems to be working wondering for them.

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Originally Posted by Polarbear

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Originally Posted by stoi

whats the point in getting 100`s of gig as a buffer, if you still have to seed everything back to 1:1.

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very true. this is what some buffer seedbox wankers really don't understand

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You right, but the point comes down to what the site rules are, if they require you to seed a minimum amount of time or to a minimum ratio, then you must follow. "love it or leave it"

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Originally Posted by darkness

no torrent site forces you to pay, you have the option to get your ratio back to a respectable one but thats it, they dont require you to pay to keep your account and to keep downloading.

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I agree that no torrent site forces anyone to pay, you are right. But as i have stated, seeding files back to a 1:1 ratio is a pain for me as i am being traffic shaped, especially on large files. I can indeed seed back to a 1:1 ratio on very few popular torrents. Downloading older packs is practically impossible for me, or at least seeding them back to a 1:1 ratio, which makes me resort back to donating for upload credits. And of course most torrent sites disable you if you go down below a certain ratio, as you probably know.

Hence why i promote FTN's system, as they have an alternative for the 1:1 ratio, which is 36 hours of seeding, which i can easily do.

VIPs dont get freeleech or gigs, and i dont agree with free leech either, we will never have it on blackcats.

but like i said im not trying to preach to other tracker owners, they are free to do what they like, its just not my choice at all.

with the SP mod we have, and i will try to explain this in laymans terms.

Non VIP and even staff and me get.

20:1 seeder leecher ratio
so if the ratio of seeders to leechers is above that you get SP if not you dont, 0 leechers always get SP.

76 hours active time before SP kicks in,
which starts from when you first start to download, and doesnt have to be consecutive, as in you cant turn your pc off.

1 SP per hour

we have a minimum of 10 SP per torrent and 100meg = 1SP
so a 5meg torrent or a 100 meg torrent will have a cost of 10sp.

a 6 gig 360 game will have a 60 cost (but whatever you actually upload gets reduced from that) so cost will be 60 if you havnt uploaded anything, if you have uploaded 3 gig the cost will be 30.

Connactable get 1 SP per hour, Unconnectable get .250 an hour.

Now VIPs

they skip the seeder/leecher ratio

they have a 36 hour active time

they get 3 SP per hour, and it doesnt matter if they are connectable or not.

We believe this is a pretty fair system, as VIPs dont get free leech, they do have to actually work at it.

btw SP kicks in when you have completed the torrent, so we have got rid of all multi game torrents (NDS packs, packed seperately) all the uploaders have to multi rar them first, so that gets rid of the partial leechers problem where they just want 1 or 2 games and sit there for months, stopping the proper seeders from getting SP.

My intention wasnt realy to explain all that, but when im tired i tend to rabble on lol

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Originally Posted by stoi

VIPs dont get freeleech or gigs, and i dont agree with free leech either, we will never have it on blackcats.

but like i said im not trying to preach to other tracker owners, they are free to do what they like, its just not my choice at all.

with the SP mod we have, and i will try to explain this in laymans terms.

Non VIP and even staff and me get.

20:1 seeder leecher ratio
so if the ratio of seeders to leechers is above that you get SP if not you dont, 0 leechers always get SP.

76 hours active time before SP kicks in,
which starts from when you first start to download, and doesnt have to be consecutive, as in you cant turn your pc off.

1 SP per hour

we have a minimum of 10 SP per torrent and 100meg = 1SP
so a 5meg torrent or a 100 meg torrent will have a cost of 10sp.

a 6 gig 360 game will have a 60 cost (but whatever you actually upload gets reduced from that) so cost will be 60 if you havnt uploaded anything, if you have uploaded 3 gig the cost will be 30.

Connactable get 1 SP per hour, Unconnectable get .250 an hour.

Now VIPs

they skip the seeder/leecher ratio

they have a 36 hour active time

they get 3 SP per hour, and it doesnt matter if they are connectable or not.

We believe this is a pretty fair system, as VIPs dont get free leech, they do have to actually work at it.

btw SP kicks in when you have completed the torrent, so we have got rid of all multi game torrents (NDS packs, packed seperately) all the uploaders have to multi rar them first, so that gets rid of the partial leechers problem where they just want 1 or 2 games and sit there for months, stopping the proper seeders from getting SP.

My intention wasnt realy to explain all that, but when im tired i tend to rabble on lol

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I enjoy systems like this, but not all trackers enjoy like you said. The rely on the basics of Seed 1:1, a minimum time or donate if you aren't able to seed 1:1, but this does not disregard existing rules. You can still be banned/disabled.

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Originally Posted by stoi

PU is 1.5 ratio
SPU is 2.05 ratio and you can upload requests.

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Another community rep found!

Pay 2 Leech is lame... Most pay 2 leech sites make some big bucks $$$ .. Wake up some of you ppl .. ;)

thanks for the clear up

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Originally Posted by darkness

Pay2Leech requires a person to Pay Money to get access to the content. ScT, CT, ST, etc are NOT Pay2Leech.

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This is all just a matter of terminology. Most users draw a distinction between Pay2Download and Pay2Leech.
- A Pay2Download system requires you to pay to access the content.
- A Pay2Leech system allows you to pay so that you can download without sharing.

I don't really object to P2L systems that much. It provides a solid source of funds for the tracker to keep going. What I do object to is blatant profiteering that goes on at some sites. For example TL has nearly 200k members. They make an absolute fortune from their P2L system and yet they still feel the need to squeeze as much money from the site as possible by having ads as well. I also hate it when sites feel the need to spam my inbox everyday with their latest great offer trying to sell me leech.

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Originally Posted by darkness

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Originally Posted by Tokeman

there are still free providers out there, they just suck because no one wants crappy retention. Back in the day, there were more quality free providers. Just because retention is what people want doesn't mean its all p2l, users wanted more retention, and that costs $$$ for storage space.

Edit: i'm not against what you've said, just clarifying my point on newsgroups.

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Noted and i agree to an extent, but it comes down to the fact, that you are paying to download, you have the option of sticking to a free provider but you are choosing to pay for something better.

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You saying Newsgroups are P2L is like me saying BitTorrent is P2L. It is an extremely inaccurate generalization.

profit from piracy? -> P2L

Never pay for File Sharing!