Vote for reformation of the WIAW thread

I didn't want to be the one to do this; I am a community rep, mod on a few trackers, know a couple people and am pretty busy in school right now. However, I think it's time for serious change. The WIAW thread attracts unnecessary attention to the trackers that choose to remain secret, draws potential traders and high-risk sharers to more comfortable sites, and jeopardizes the security of trackers who wish to remain anonymous. The WIAW thread attaches a subjective value to a Bittorrent tracker, not based on it's content or community or any other effective component but simply on the difficulty of acquiring invites. I truly believe that it is time, like SgtMajor said, to revoke the status quo and push for reformation or elimination of the WIAW thread, and push for a new mentality comprised of a different perspective on what makes a tracker valuable. No longer should a tracker be rated solely on the difficulty of acquiring an invite, but the quality and quantity of the content it provides, the reach and effectiveness of the staff, and the community that provides locomotion for the tracker. We as FST members should push to reform this thread to make not only invites available for all, but to eliminate the way things have been headed and direct attention to the things that matter in a tracker. This is for the benefit of all. The trackers you work so hard to be a part of will not be as alienated by FST once the subjective and meaningless "rankings" are eliminated.

-Krunktastic

except that quality is ALOT more subjective than rarity...

But i would lose my JOB!! :cry1:

It has been discussed to death in the past, the WTAW thread isn't going anywhere.

I don't want to debate on this once again

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WTAW

But i would lose my JOB!! :cry1:

It has been discussed to death in the past, the WTAW thread isn't going anywhere.

I don't want to debate on this once again

---

Your "job" is not what is debatable. Your "job" is based on a trivial topic that deserves attention whether you in particular like it or not. Neither is it up to you to decide that "rarity" should be the basis of trading. Whoever you are hiding behind that identity, you should know that there are other things such as content, community, quantity and quality of torrents, and staff that make a tracker valuable. You, of all people, should know that rarity has the least importance of all those components and yet you still lay stress on those factors. Your comment was entirely irrelevant to the topic.

Likewise, the community is what creates a tracker, not the other way around. FST forums are no exception.

You can always work as a wal-mart janitor.

Krunk it will not happen. I would report all this to Reality. He and the adminstrators are the only ones who has the authority to rid it even though it is highly unlikely. I do share some of your frustrations but, what the'll probably tell you is to deal with it or do not continue to be a member of FST. I think there is some good but most traders and bad users hinder what otherwise is a very useful thread for informational purposes. But of course you always have people that take advantage of things.

This time I disagree with you.
The problem is not the rating, the problem is that people don´t understand what the rating means.
I am very clear about that, it´s stated that the level is based only on rarity. Who does not understand that, it´s his problem. Besides, the makers tell crystal clear other facts, like pre-times, speeds and others, it´s the info in brackets.
If people don´t care about knowing that things, or if they know but prefer the challenge of getting in X site because it´s very hard, sacrificing quality for snobbery, again: it´s their problem.
For example: I don´t deny Norbits can be an excellent tracker, but is pointed for Norwegian and Nordic users, why the hell somebody who does not understand a single word of those languages, that even has not a PAL TV could desire one invite to that tracker?. I was trying to get in it, until I was noticed about those facts, if tomorrow some friend offers me an invite to Norbits I will gently decline the offer, because although I know is an excellent site, it´s worthless for me, and I won´t give it the use that deserves.
And at the end, that level thing it´s not something exclusive of FST, every forum, blog, cave-site and bandits refugee in the web has the ranking, I don´t know if copied from here, but if tomorrow staff avoids it, for sure the ranking will remain.
I wouldn´t say it´s an info issue either, because the info and the explanation are there, for whoever wants to read it, the thing is that many people simply don´t care about that. "It´s hard, I want it... what for?... I don´t know, because I need it"
The odious e-penis word it´s definitely a great invent.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nemrod

This time I disagree with you.
The problem is not the rating, the problem is that people don´t understand what the rating means.
I am very clear about that, it´s stated that the level is based only on rarity. Who does not understand that, it´s his problem. Besides, the makers tell crystal clear other facts, like pre-times, speeds and others, it´s the info in brackets.
If people don´t care about knowing that things, or if they know but prefer the challenge of getting in X site because it´s very hard, sacrificing quality for snobbery, again: it´s their problem.
For example: I don´t deny Norbits can be an excellent tracker, but is pointed for Norwegian and Nordic users, why the hell somebody who does not understand a single word of those languages, that even has not a PAL TV could desire one invite to that tracker?. I was trying to get in it, until I was noticed about those facts, if tomorrow some friend offers me an invite to Norbits I will gently decline the offer, because although I know is an excellent site, it´s worthless for me, and I won´t give it the use that deserves.
And at the end, that level thing it´s not something exclusive of FST, every forum, blog, cave-site and bandits refugee in the web has the ranking, I don´t know if copied from here, but if tomorrow staff avoids it, for sure the ranking will remain.
I wouldn´t say it´s an info issue either, because the info and the explanation are there, for whoever wants to read it, the thing is that many people simply don´t care about that. "It´s hard, I want it... what for?... I don´t know, because I need it"
The odious e-penis word it´s definitely a great invent.

---

So, concurring with you, why doesn't the WTAW thread, which particularly promotes the "worth" of trackers, promote the worth instead on a 1-10 basis and put the rarity in the brackets. The problem is not an absence of information but rather an incessant reconstruction to accurately represent the rarity of an invite. The point is that this just doesn't make sense and causes far more harm than good. I understand that traders want to trade, and I'm fine with that. Traders will be disappointed when they arrive at their "dream" trackers like FTN, FSC, and FTWR, because they assume because these trackers are hard to get then they must be worthwhile. I will never use FTN, nor FSC, nor any other tracker that is ranked about "level 7". It's a shame that this is what is important in the FST community; not sharing, but moving up the imaginary ladder.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by T.S.O.L.

except that quality is ALOT more subjective than rarity...

---

How? Explain.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grimms

Krunk it will not happen. I would report all this to Reality. He and the adminstrators are the only ones who has the authority to rid it even though it is highly unlikely. I do share some of your frustrations but, what the'll probably tell you is to deal with it or do not continue to be a member of FST. I think there is some good but most traders and bad users hinder what otherwise is a very useful thread for informational purposes. But of course you always have people that take advantage of things.

---

Not to be too serious or anything, but when people want change they shouldn't sit back and wait for it. If people want to change the way invites are perceived and eliminate that imaginary bounty on your invites, this is the way to do it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sanka113

You can always work as a wal-mart janitor.

---

win.

If the things go about getting in, the logic indicates that the primary fact to take in consideration is the difficulty level that any given site has.
And people... what they want is get in. FST tells how difficult or how easy is that. Nothing more, nothing less.

if you rank over quality, there's just gonna be lots of bitching about "OHHH Torrentleech is better, cuz its got wayy more torrents than Sct" "WHAT RU TALKING ABOUT SCT IS FASTER PRETIMES, LALALALA..."

everyone is going to have their own opinion on how good their trackers are, and theres gonna be chaos and confusion, or alot of angry users.

rarity on the other hand is relatively debatable. in broad terms, it goes up when the invites are closed for a long period, and goes down again when the sites opens reg.

trust me theres no way rating 'quality' is ever gonna happen. it's just gonna be a bitchfest, except instead of 1 person bitching (you), its gonna be every single trader at fst.

im sorry if i was offensive to you, i'm not trying to be. im just trying to get the point across to you

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by T.S.O.L.

if you rank over quality, there's just gonna be lots of bitching about "OHHH Torrentleech is better, cuz its got wayy more torrents than Sct" "WHAT RU TALKING ABOUT SCT IS FASTER PRETIMES, LALALALA..."

everyone is going to have their own opinion on how good their trackers are, and theres gonna be chaos and confusion, or alot of angry users.

rarity on the other hand is relatively debatable. in broad terms, it goes up when the invites are closed for a long period, and goes down again when the sites opens reg.

trust me theres no way rating 'quality' is ever gonna happen. it's just gonna be a bitchfest, except instead of 1 person bitching (you), its gonna be every single trader at fst.

im sorry if i was offensive to you, i'm not trying to be. im just trying to get the point across to you

---

A. I get the point. And I'm not bitching.
B. If people were willing to be reasonable and perhaps succumb to some sort of accurate system of measurement ratings would be feasible. It isn't unreasonable to assume that trackers can be rated. Just like when movies get reviews, not all reviews are 100% positive. There are always negative reviews that highlight the flaws and positive reviews that highlight the great performances and such. This could be settled quietly and reasonably.

Number of torrents: x
Forum activity (new post p. day avg): x
Seeded Torrents/ Leeched Torrents: x/x
User averaged pretimes: x/10
Average user rating: x/10

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nemrod

If the things go about getting in, the logic indicates that the primary fact to take in consideration is the difficulty level that any given site has.
And people... what they want is get in. FST tells how difficult or how easy is that. Nothing more, nothing less.

---

The whole point is that the thread dictates how hard it should be, and is usually far off. The levels are misleading, in short. They don't do what they should do and they don't accomplished what they're supposed to. Why, anyway, is the difficulty of getting into a site important? How does that have any relevance whatsoever?

@krunktastic what you're asking for already exists What Trackers Offer [Content, Speed, Pre-time, etc...] It was created in response to threads like these which have been done a few times. The idea is to allow noobs and people who don't want to deal with the WTAW thread a chance to have something different.

The traders like the WTAW thread the way it is, and I don't think it's going to change. I suppose if enough people called for change it could happen, however as it stands now the traders have the numbers. Best thing to do is work to educate people about what really matters in a sharing community.

Trackers could be rated quite easily. You would have to put them in groups though. Alot of sites would easily tie with each other as far as ratings though due to some sites providing the same exact benefits, torrents, number of members, seeds, content, list goes on. The WIAW thread is helpful for information and knowledge of what sites exist but are bad for people with the wrong intentions. Thats the whole reason why some Tracker Staff, Admins, Mods, dislike the thread. It brings unwanted attention that most sites neither want nor need for whatever purpose. Honestly? I feel like most sites will find you if your mean't to be found. Unfortunately we have members who try to force their way in. Some get in, fuck up, then flame and false promote the site, trade accounts to get back in, blame others for their mistake, etc. It can go either way. Levels mean nothing just the content that the trackers provide and of course the community which is important as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WTO

Best thing to do is work to educate people about what really matters in a sharing community.

---

Me and Artemis were just discussing this very issue. Best thing to do is try to stir members in the right direction. I try to but have accepted the fact that you can't help out all members and that traders will be allowed on this board as long as FST rules permit them too. Good point WTO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grimms

...the whole reason why some Tracker Staff, Admins, Mods, dislike the thread. It brings unwanted attention that most sites neither want nor need for whatever purpose.

---

Thank you. This is pretty much my whole point.

I'm also really really surprised 10,000 more people haven't jumped on this thread. With all the complaining I see in other threads one would think that people would take opportunity to get things changed.

Edit: And thank you, WTO and everyone else, for the intelligent posts.

I think the major problem is 3 lines in that thread.

# THIS LIST SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN LITERALLY. It's just to figure where each site stands RARITY-WISE. Use Rankings Between Brackets For [Content,Speed,Pre-Times]

No one reads this.

These sites are easy to obtain. Chances are you will get in these sites without trading.

You do not have to trade for lvl 2.

These sites are harder to obtain for various reasons, though fairly easy provided that you offer similar.

but you do for lvl 3.

so if you have to trade for lvl 3, then you have to for 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 as well.

so to me thats saying, if you do not trade something, then your not getting in.

do what most other people here do and just ignore it, i looked at that thing when i first got here but since then i dont know which trackers are which levels off the top of my head and i dont really care. i just know which ones sound good to me based on what i hear from people i know and trust. i dont think the trackers that want to be anonymous will get off that list but maybe they can get the *'s in their name to keep a couple people in the dark. with or without it though people will find a tracker if they want to so its probably best to just ignore it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by krunktastic

I'm also really really surprised 10,000 more people haven't jumped on this thread. With all the complaining I see in other threads one would think that people would take opportunity to get things changed.

---

well that's the main problem. People like to bitch and talk big but when it comes to actually doing something it's a lot harder to find people to help. That's when you discover who actually means what they're saying.

I don't know. Honestly? I think there would have to be enough reps, mods, and admins reporting the thread before any action were to be taken. It's highly unlikely that much could be done about it or will be done if that was not to happen. Unfortunately Krunk, we have to educate users early on to follow the right path (I know it's not are job or responsibility to do so, due to a REAL job, life, family, blah)I usually try to look out as much as i can and offer constructive advice about not trading, breaking tracker rules or wishes, but it's nearly impossible to do that with a real life, family, limited time. You got young kids on here that just don't understand or may not get it. I do think maybe restructuring the thread may help though. Cause like stoi pointed out some of the wording, gives you the impression that trading is the only way you'll ever have access to sites lvl4 and above which is untrue unless we are talking about U**.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WTO

well that's the main problem. People like to bitch and talk big but when it comes to actually doing something it's a lot harder to find people to help. That's when you discover who actually means what they're saying.

---

I agree. Honestly though? Some people don't have the time to bother. Some people outright just don't care. Other members probably don't even know whats going on. Others don't want to be regarded or miscontrued as a problem cause they took the liberty to help some members by reporting certain issues or threads to a mod or adminstrator. Obviously if your a trader you'll be totally against the removal of the WIAW thread. We are at a stalemate here. I feel like talking about this is like a game of chess and unless your highly skilled opponent, none of us will know the outcome until it's all said and done with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WTO

@krunktastic what you're asking for already exists What Trackers Offer [Content, Speed, Pre-time, etc...] It was created in response to threads like these which have been done a few times. The idea is to allow noobs and people who don't want to deal with the WTAW thread a chance to have something different.

The traders like the WTAW thread the way it is, and I don't think it's going to change. I suppose if enough people called for change it could happen, however as it stands now the traders have the numbers. Best thing to do is work to educate people about what really matters in a sharing community.

---

Then titles should be switched. "Worth" should not be based on a subjective and meaningless "rarity" rating.

I'll try to use a metaphor:
Let's call every tracker some type of restaurant, with each "rarity level" being a seating time or reservation availability. How easy it is to be seated has nothing to do with the quality of the food or the environment. Why wait 15 hours to be seated at Burger King (Uk-T) when you can get cheaper and tastier food across the street right now (BitMeTV or TvTorrents)?

Now let's say theres a restaurant guide at every street corner, and each guide has every restaurant ranked on a four star basis. But these guides have nothing to do with the quality of the environment (community), waiters (staff) or food (content). These guides simply "rate" restaurants by how hard they are to get seated in.

It doesn't make any sense in either situation. The WIAW thread is meaningless and superfluous and undermines the mentality of the bittorrent community.

Love your analogy krunk. Nice way to throw it out there in laymen terms.

krunk : one of the best examples ive ever seen to explain that point. i think everyone who comes in here needs to read that

it's the first time i read what you wrote from the beginning to the end and i must say i agree with you, fst have become a place respected by torrent community and i don't think such community have a place for this kinda system which attracts traders and tracker collectors for trackers who wish to remain with their community and friends.

I suggest removing the wtaw thread although it brings much interest and fun watching the rating level of a tracker by it's rarity this should not be rated as levels, there should be a description of each site and there the reviewer should write the status of invites on this site, this reviews should be updated regularly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stoi

I think the major problem is 3 lines in that thread.

# THIS LIST SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN LITERALLY. It's just to figure where each site stands RARITY-WISE. Use Rankings Between Brackets For [Content,Speed,Pre-Times]

No one reads this.

These sites are easy to obtain. Chances are you will get in these sites without trading.

You do not have to trade for lvl 2.

These sites are harder to obtain for various reasons, though fairly easy provided that you offer similar.

but you do for lvl 3.

so if you have to trade for lvl 3, then you have to for 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 as well.

so to me thats saying, if you do not trade something, then your not getting in.

---

You are absolutely right these lines say to me the same thing you will not get in if u don`t trade.
If nothing else changes regarding WTAW thread i will definitely vote for this lines to dissapear from there or change form in a maner that doesn`t encourage trading.
If i were to vote to remove the WTAW or the WTO i would vote NO, because i can read there opinions regarding a tracker of course some are subjective other objective but still if you are not in that tracker u can find out if u whant to be or not , and i think for the tracker staf is a way too see how do users react at the changes they are making within their trackers.

I agree with stoi on this one. The changes done to that thread should be the mentioning of trading... and BTW the whole name of the thread. What Trackers are Worth already indicates that you have to trade.

It is the 'worth' itself that is the problem, the FST invite section is like a stockmarket, that reacts to site closures etc and you constantly have traders commenting in the threads thats not enough to get that, or that is to generous an offer you should ask for more, so the section itself has a life of its own. There are members here who live and breathe the WTAW thread and post almost exclusively in the invites section, so to say get rid of the thread would tear a vital piece out of this community.For better or for worse (everyone knows I think its worse :P) the WTAW thread is here to stay, and the weird little stock market it generates with its brokers running around reacting to the latest news or scurrying around trying to get the invite for the flavor of the day tracker.
We can try to change some peoples attitudes by leading by example, and explaining the problems that trading brings to the community, but explaining that to someone who just sees the levels and the 'worth' in terms of the rarity and you might as well be speaking in Swahili .
I think that the system in place here and the BT mods doing the (mostly thankless) job that they do keeps alot of excesses from happening.
I absolutely agree with your sentiments krunk, but I do not believe that this will in anyway change the reality of FST and the stockmarket that is the invites section. One interesting comment retro made to me though that has always stuck in my mind is that there is an advantage for those trackers high up in the level scale since users care so much more for their a/c's, you never see anyone bemoaning the fact that they have been disabled on DH yet if it happens on Ftn you'd think they had just suffered an amputation.
In the end I believe the only way to change the attitude is for more people to explain to new users that there are alternatives some get it, some don't but then that is life too, and this community is a small microcosm of that ?

It´s a hard to resolve issue. Because it always will have many subjective things.
Let´s say that for some people what is very valuable for others is nothing. If you are a games addict, BCG should have to be level 19+ but if you not even play Solitaire, level 1 could be too much.
The only thing that is measurable in an objective way is how difficult is to get in.
You and me can discuss at individual level based in our own preferences, but this is a forum where people come to obtain invites, trade them, trade accounts and in some cases looking for the dumbest, so the goods must have a reference "price", and as I said before the whole thing goes about getting into a site, so the rarity is the universal reference.
At least they make one ranking per category.

Change every tracker to lvl 1. That way WTAW won't die and everyone would be happy (at least i would be).

I dont understand why the thread is needed at all. If people want to trade to get into a tracker, then surley its best for them to offer what they think its worth and not what they are told its worth on The thread.

That way content would be the most important thing and not rarity, because rarity wouldnt be an issue. you would only trade if you wanted into a tracker for what it has

i totally agree with you krunktastic, ranking trackers according to their rarity totally diminishes the values and significance of what each tracker brings.

renewal, if not a removal, would be quite necessary

whether everyone admits it or not most care a lot about rarity, trader or otherwise. be it for safety, higher quality members, bigger penis, etc.. don't try and tell us squirrel that you don't when you make requests for the rabbit etc.. you wouldn't give a fuck about that tracker otherwise.

while i can understand most tracker owners dislike the rarity chart, i find it funny the newer rare trackers and some of the older ones use this place to promote their site and get popular then have the cheek to whine about being on here. if you allow members to talk openly about the tracker on here and show off their eliteness with userbars then it's your own fault the amount of attention you receive. UK-T and the rabbit are the only actual rare one's on that chart that you never really see being mentioned or promoted by members on here. it is the trackers and the members responsibility to keep a tracker properly low key if thats what they want. cant have it both ways.

Artemis...you've got it spot on mate. I've argued long and hard on this issue many times. Both in private and public I've urged for it to be reformed or scrapped. But I've come to realise that a. that's never going to happen and b. it is a vital part of this community.

As much as I disagree with the WTAW thread, there are many members of this community that think it's very important. From the staff's point of view I can see it serves a purpose as well. Before it existed trading was a lot more unbalanced. You had noobs coming here and getting taken advantage of, then they'd come back crying that they got ripped off. The amount of threads saying this person scammed me or whatever were out of control. So in a way the thread keeps the trading section a lot more honest. It also makes it more friendly and less of a jungle.

The real issue is trading, as long as trading is allowed then the WTAW is important. IMO FST should ban trading and be done with it, but that's not going to happen, and to be honest neither is a reformation of the WTAW thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stoi

I think the major problem is 3 lines in that thread.

# THIS LIST SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN LITERALLY. It's just to figure where each site stands RARITY-WISE. Use Rankings Between Brackets For [Content,Speed,Pre-Times]

No one reads this.

These sites are easy to obtain. Chances are you will get in these sites without trading.

You do not have to trade for lvl 2.

These sites are harder to obtain for various reasons, though fairly easy provided that you offer similar.

but you do for lvl 3.

so if you have to trade for lvl 3, then you have to for 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 as well.

so to me thats saying, if you do not trade something, then your not getting in.

---

you do have a great point stoi, i never thought about it this way.

it would inform people that it's possible to get into these trackers by being a good community member also, trading isn't the only way to go

i'm going to change to change thoses sentences and will ask for your comments after

thx for the input :)

UPDATE : done, added a new note in the thread and changed some text

No problem :)

and yeah thats a lot better, only problem now is to get those that have been here for awhile to re-read it lol.

I loved sears and artemis points on this subject as well. Thanks to stoi though for pointing that text out to put some change in effect. Little change is always better, then no change at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WTAW

you do have a great point stoi, i never thought about it this way.

it would inform people that it's possible to get into these trackers by being a good community member also, trading isn't the only way to go

i'm going to change to change thoses sentences and will ask for your comments after

thx for the input :)

UPDATE : done, added a new note in the thread and changed some text

---

Good job mate...my hat goes off to you.

You can't have security and a thread dedicated to torrent sites showing it's qualitys. people are forgeting noobs who have nothing if no information was around how would anybody join these so called communities? i think the anger is mainly focused on the way it is rated as i said previously today i don't think people should look at it in terms of just numbers there is a little more than that if you don't like it ignor it this is filesharingtalk after all let people have their level 10 dream that they won't get.

Traders come into play also most people who just start of tradeing think there is no way to get into any other site which there is but to them it's polite to offer something in return when your new they think they won't get anything unless something is given in return same as exchanging goods in your local shop. hardcore traders i have no idea on their purpose.

this site is level 10 this site is level one they all get the attention if security is the priority factor then close the doors and be happy with the members you have i have always posed this question why is it sites with open doors much more content are still around and many are and those that are closed tighter than a **** ass are so paranoid?

but thats part of the problem, you close the doors and you shoot up to lvl 10, so every man and his dog wants to get in there, the whole idea of closing your doors is to get "under" the radar, but this thread makes you 30,000 feet up and a huge blip on the radar. just ready to be shot down.

Scrap it totally and somebody will have a new idea based on something else and the idea of trading will change . he likes music i like tv we swap where ever there is popularity in something there is always some silly way to trade the only way to stop attention is close completely or become totally private which means nobody gets anything no community no downloads.

Why do sites need a rating?

I'm not sure.....

I don't see why people feel the need to label sites and give them a value.

Those who aren't members don't need to know what a site offers, once they're members is their business.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LordS

Those who aren't members don't need to know what a site offers, once they're members is their business.

---

Well that's your opinion, but even some comm reps won't agree with that (just look at stoi signature ;) )

Ratings and reviews (let's put rarity aside) are usefull tools to give FST members some knowledge on where to get the content they need, you might not like it but it responds to a need