I am just curious to see what type of government people in the USA think they have?
Printable View
I am just curious to see what type of government people in the USA think they have?
Ah - don't be coy, tell us what you think.Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman_1
I agree. It is a little difficult to spark a debate when you don't state your viewpoint.Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4Ah - don't be coy, tell us what you think.Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman_1
I am curious to know since I hear our illustrious politicians saying that we are a Democracy and want to spread Democracy.
Last time I checked, we were a Constitutional Republic unless that has changed.
Potato potata.
We can vote people out of power.
That's what matters to me.
And that has what to do with post?Quote:
Originally Posted by 999969999
What do you not understand about potato potata, man?!Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman_1And that has what to do with post?Quote:
Originally Posted by 999969999
It is hard to describe what kind of country the U.S.A.(they are not alone)is, when a party with 51%(or less) of the vote can do what they like, ignoring the wishes of the other 49%. That is not a Democracy in my book. Some people are banned from forming a political party, like the Communists and others. Why not let some of them stand for election and let the voters decide? Look at the way they have treated Cuba yet all the top brass have a big fat Cuban cigar stuck in their mouths. I wonder what would happen if Canada voted for communism?
There, that should liven things up a wee bit. I will get a reply from Kev when he gets his musket back out of the case again. After last night he thought it was safe to put it away again.:whistling
P.S. I know the post was directed at U.S. citizens. I could not resist.
It was supposed to have been designed so that the minority isn't oppressed by the majority. In fact with the electoral college system and a propensity to gerimander electoral districts the populace minority can end up with more congressional might than the populace majority. The majority party gets to set the agenda, the minority party gets to derail it.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
In the land of the free the amount of freedom depends on who gets to define the word. Oddly enough the more someone rants about freedoms the more likely they are to want to stop the ones they disprove of.
Liberals want to stop you getting fat, Conservatives want to stop you having sex.
Oooh, very clever.Quote:
Originally Posted by devilsadvocate
Put that on the next protest sign you make, and carry it at the liberal get-together of your choice.
I guess one of the things that irk me is the fact that no one calls these politicians on it when they mention Democracy. No where in the founding documents of this country was Democracy ever mentioned. One quote, from James Madison, pretty much says it all in regards to Democracy that couldn't be truer:
Quote:
Democracy is the most vile form of government... democracies have ever
been spectacles of turbulence and contention: have ever been found
incompatible with personal security or the rights of property:
and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent
in their deaths.
Fun fact: For several hours in our last national election the Communists held an Ontario riding. It seems they vote in blocs.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
:shuriken:
I wonder how long it will be until our Democrat party will end the charade and just come right out and start calling themselves Communists?
Get real. You are more right wing than the Knesset. Compared to this countries politicians your Democratic Party is slightly to the right of our Conservative Party. The only thing to the right of them is the neo nazi British National Party.
I wonder how long it will be until you learn what a Communist is.Quote:
Originally Posted by 999969999
Oh wait, what was I thinking?
You'll never learn that because facts are simply impediments to your agenda.
Please stay on topic...
Honestly, I have grown to favor socialism. It seems to meet the modern demands of people. Taxes are high, but the returns to the majority seem to be quite comfortable. Ask any of the Canadians on this board (all of the ones I know anyway) and you will get a picture that is far more favorable than any of the right-wing radio "personalities" will tell you.
Now for something completely different... (Monty Python's Holy Grail, scene 3)
Look up anarcho-syndicalist for an interesting, yet very far fetched form of government. Essentially, it's socialized anarchists. :)
[clop clop]
ARTHUR: Old woman!
DENNIS: Man!
ARTHUR: Old Man, sorry. What knight live in that castle over there?
DENNIS: I'm thirty seven.
ARTHUR: What?
DENNIS: I'm thirty seven -- I'm not old!
ARTHUR: Well, I can't just call you `Man'.
DENNIS: Well, you could say `Dennis'.
ARTHUR: Well, I didn't know you were called `Dennis.'
DENNIS: Well, you didn't bother to find out, did you?
ARTHUR: I did say sorry about the `old woman,' but from the behind
you looked--
DENNIS: What I object to is you automatically treat me like an inferior!
ARTHUR: Well, I AM king...
DENNIS: Oh king, eh, very nice. An' how'd you get that, eh? By
exploitin' the workers -- by 'angin' on to outdated imperialist dogma
which perpetuates the economic an' social differences in our society!
If there's ever going to be any progress--
WOMAN: Dennis, there's some lovely filth down here. Oh -- how d'you do?
ARTHUR: How do you do, good lady. I am Arthur, King of the Britons.
Who's castle is that?
WOMAN: King of the who?
ARTHUR: The Britons.
WOMAN: Who are the Britons?
ARTHUR: Well, we all are. we're all Britons and I am your king.
WOMAN: I didn't know we had a king. I thought we were an autonomous
collective.
DENNIS: You're fooling yourself. We're living in a dictatorship.
A self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes--
WOMAN: Oh there you go, bringing class into it again.
DENNIS: That's what it's all about if only people would--
ARTHUR: Please, please good people. I am in haste. Who lives
in that castle?
WOMAN: No one live there.
ARTHUR: Then who is your lord?
WOMAN: We don't have a lord.
ARTHUR: What?
DENNIS: I told you. We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take
it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week.
ARTHUR: Yes.
DENNIS: But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified
at a special biweekly meeting.
ARTHUR: Yes, I see.
DENNIS: By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,--
ARTHUR: Be quiet!
DENNIS: --but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more--
ARTHUR: Be quiet! I order you to be quiet!
WOMAN: Order, eh -- who does he think he is?
ARTHUR: I am your king!
WOMAN: Well, I didn't vote for you.
ARTHUR: You don't vote for kings.
WOMAN: Well, 'ow did you become king then?
ARTHUR: The Lady of the Lake,
[angels sing]
her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur
from the bosom of the water signifying by Divine Providence that I,
Arthur, was to carry Excalibur.
[singing stops]
That is why I am your king!
DENNIS: Listen -- strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power
derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical
aquatic ceremony.
ARTHUR: Be quiet!
DENNIS: Well you can't expect to wield supreme executive power
just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!
ARTHUR: Shut up!
DENNIS: I mean, if I went around sayin' I was an empereror just
because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me they'd
put me away!
ARTHUR: Shut up! Will you shut up!
DENNIS: Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system.
ARTHUR: Shut up!
DENNIS: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system!
HELP! HELP! I'm being repressed!
ARTHUR: Bloody peasant!
DENNIS: Oh, what a give away. Did you here that, did you here that,
eh? That's what I'm on about -- did you see him repressing me,
you saw it didn't you?
What a surprise!Quote:
Originally Posted by megabyteme
Here's an idea:Quote:
Originally Posted by megabyteme
You go try it out for a few years, and get back to us.
It's funny how you have both bought into the word as a negative. It makes me picture you guys running to the store every time a commercial comes on television. The highest standards of living in the world (for the masses, not the elite-the elite do VERY nicely here.) ARE socialist countries.
Have either of you truly risen among the social classes in your lifetime? I managed to work myself from (literally nothing) to lower middle-class before my body gave out. I'm 39. I take morphine twice a day for pain, and still can't afford health insurance!
I ask you both, how you can ethically, or intellectually, favor a system (US branded capitalism) that keeps 40% of the population in/below poverty?
You are exhibiting so comprehensive a mis-understanding of circumstances as to defy description.Quote:
Originally Posted by megabyteme
Here is a fact:
Everything you hate about Capitalism equates to a sub-set of this country's self-appointed elites, the ones who move among and between the highest echelons of both American political parties.
These are, for lack of a more refined descriptive, the type of people who we talk about when we refer to "Golden Parachutes", on the one hand, and, let us say, George Soros on the other.
The kind of people who, when a conservative says "Free Market", want you to hear "Status Quo".
Does that help?
Forget the top 1%. Forget the top 30%. They have so much more than you could possibly earn in 20 lifetimes that they aren't even worth discussing. We'll just say that they like the systemwethey've got.
It's the bottom 40%- 120 MILLION people who have nothing, won't have anything, and if they (as a group) do better, the system rises to ensure they stay at the bottom.
Then there's the differing levels of middle-class. Almost all of us are defined by holding the vast majority of our "wealth" in our homes. That said, most of us just lost the majority of our "wealth" in this recent government-approved/protected land grab.
Now tell me that capitalism lets someone "rise up". AND what are we rising up in? The hope that we can someday be exempt from getting fucked.
Since this thread is taking a different direction from what I intended, I guess I will chime in on this.
Although I don't endorse Socialism, I am aware that the rich, the 1% of the population that hold most of the wealth, run this country and basically "own" it. Don't believe me? Look at the bail-out. At first Congress says no, then all of sudden from some secret meetings at the last moment, things change. Then they blame all the foreclosures for why it happened. Yes that was part of the reason but it goes deeper than that. Ever heard of OTC Derivatives? Most people probably haven't. Frontline on PBS had a very informative program, http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...tm_source=grid, on these Derivatives that I suggest that everyone should watch. Not a Michael Moore fan but his last documentary, was pretty much spot on, Capitalism a Love Story. Good ole greed got us into this situation and it is good ole greed that will ensure that it continues. Like a economic expert said when asked by Frontline what the next bubble will be, "Take your pick, there are bubbles everywhere."
The American dream? Yea I use to believe that lie. There is no American Dream. I know plenty of hard working folks that work their butts off and never see any benefit from their labor. The American Dream is something the rich spoon feed you so you stay good citizens. There are nearly 250 millionaires in Congress right now. If they aren't a millionaire when they go in, they more than likely will be by the time they leave. Do you feel represented yet? What is laughable to me, is that there are so many people that believe the hype of left vs right, liberal vs conservative, Democrat vs Republican. The truth is, they do that on purpose so you are focused on petty arguments and not on how poor of a job they do representing you. The original point of this thread was to start a conversation of this corruption but I guess it flew over peoples heads I suppose. Something as simple as Republic vs Democracy I guess isn't being taught in school anymore or people are too complacent to even care. Anyway that is my two cents worth...
I agree with most of this post. We could add a lot of things that are surreptitiously done to keep the working man just that:-Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman_1
Divide and conquer: Covered above, also we are brainwashed from day one to treat our neighbouring towns as rivals. Different religions as enemies.They are afraid that if all the Joe Soaps become friends their future would be down the tube.
Gambling: The rich speculate(gamble). If they win they keep the winnings. If they lose Joe Soap pays them back what they have lost+.(Banking rings bell?)
Lets Keep Prices Low For Our Customers: By the likes of Walmart screwing the farmers etc. into the ground to keep prices 'low' and share prices high. Also (screwing) putting all the small businesses out off business. Moving the hypermarkets out off town so they don't have to pay rates to the locals. Creating tax havens to avoid paying tax to the country.
Hypermarkets: Is that not a form of communism for the rich?:whistling
Where do we stop?
P.s. I'm havering, of course. I'll go back to bed.:rolleyes:
I have a better idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by megabyteme
Why don't you elucidate further on this ^ statement, then tell us which party(s) executed that last bit.
You may finish by telling us very precisely and exactly who you should be fearing; don't be afraid to look beyond political ideology.
I dispute the validity of your claim that anyone (including socialist countries) has a higher standard of living than the United States. I've been on vacations with my family to various European countries and while they are nice to visit, I am always glad to be back in the United States after the vacation is over.Quote:
Originally Posted by megabyteme
My life has just begun, so no, I haven't "risen among the social classes" yet. My family is what you would probably consider to be rich, so there is not a lot of rising to do. I probably won't have the same experiences as you have had. But I still think that the United States offers the greatest opportunity for upward mobility of any nation on the planet. Most of it is just from hard work, wise investing, clever strategies, risk taking, and yes, a little bit of luck. When my ancestors moved here from Austria in the 1800's they were poor as dirt, but look at us now!
Your situation may be a case of bad luck. But, I believe the majority of that 40% you claim is poor are quite simply lazy or unwilling to take the risks necessary to reap the rewards of the capitalist system. If my ancestors had played it safe and just stayed in Austria, I would probably be a poor kid in Austria right now. It was a risky but profitable adventure for them to come here from Austria.
Socialism is negative because it seeks to strip away wealth from people like me and give it to poor lazy people who should get off their asses and go to work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 999969999I dispute the validity of your claim that anyone (including socialist countries) has a higher standard of living than the United States. I've been on vacations with my family to various European countries and while they are nice to visit, I am always glad to be back in the United States after the vacation is over.Quote:
Originally Posted by megabyteme
My life has just begun, so no, I haven't "risen among the social classes" yet. My family is what you would probably consider to be rich, so there is not a lot of rising to do. I probably won't have the same experiences as you have had. But I still think that the United States offers the greatest opportunity for upward mobility of any nation on the planet. Most of it is just from hard work, wise investing, clever strategies, risk taking, and yes, a little bit of luck. When my ancestors moved here from Austria in the 1800's they were poor as dirt, but look at us now!
Your situation may be a case of bad luck. But, I believe the majority of that 40% you claim is poor are quite simply lazy or unwilling to take the risks necessary to reap the rewards of the capitalist system. If my ancestors had played it safe and just stayed in Austria, I would probably be a poor kid in Austria right now. It was a risky but profitable adventure for them to come here from Austria.
Socialism is negative because it seeks to strip away wealth from people like me and give it to poor lazy people who should get off their asses and go to work.
How many of those idle lazy people are conveniently out of work in order to keep wages low? Let everyone start from square one and see how many 'people like me' have jobs. A lot of business people struggle all their lives and never get to be 'people like you' because they are honest and overtaxed. They don't secret their actual wealth away in tax havens.
If I had my way, you're lucky I don't! nobody would inherit any more than a years average wages. The land would belong to the country and not to someone who was good with a bow and arrow 700 years ago(U.K), a gun 200 years ago(U.S.A.). Just remember that the native Americans were community living peoples. That is communism to you. 'People like you' took their land off them. I don't see you condemn the idle rich. Did you visit the French Riviera on your travels. Did you see the squander and waste while a few hundred miles across the the water kids are dying every day for the want of a few cents that would keep them nourished. Your kind make me sick.:angry:
Man, this kind of logic is dangerous and pervasive. Much like affirmative action which seeks to punish people like me because I was born into an Austrian family (which I had no control over), you think I should be punished because I was born into a wealthy family (also which I had no control over). But the latter is a result of a lot of hard work by my ancestors. If they can not pass down their wealth to their children and grandchildren, etc., then what is their incentive for hard work and building a fortune over generations? Why shouldn't they just sit on their asses, too, and wait for the government to give them everything?Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboabQuote:
Originally Posted by 999969999
How many of those idle lazy people are conveniently out of work in order to keep wages low? Let everyone start from square one and see how many 'people like me' have jobs. A lot of business people struggle all their lives and never get to be 'people like you' because they are honest and overtaxed. They don't secret their actual wealth away in tax havens.
If I had my way, you're lucky I don't! nobody would inherit any more than a years average wages. The land would belong to the country and not to someone who was good with a bow and arrow 700 years ago(U.K), a gun 200 years ago(U.S.A.). Just remember that the native Americans were community living peoples. That is communism to you. 'People like you' took their land off them. I don't see you condemn the idle rich. Did you visit the French Riviera on your travels. Did you see the squander and waste while a few hundred miles across the the water kids are dying every day for the want of a few cents that would keep them nourished. Your kind make me sick.:angry:
And yes, I have been to the French Riviera, and it was fun. Maybe I should be stoned to death for that?
"Just remember that the native Americans were community living peoples. That is communism to you."
Good point. The Native Americans had this land for a lot longer than we had it, but they did almost nothing with it. That is the problem with communism. It just doesn't work.
Capitalism is what built this country and made it a great place to live. Abandon it at your own peril.
The topic of this thread is "forms of government". I stood up in favor of socialism due to its ability to meet the needs of the masses. You are the one who wants to look dem/rep on this one. The massively rich (which wouldn't have control in a socialist gov.) are the ones who were "too big to fail" here. Nice system. :ermm:Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4I have a better idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by megabyteme
Why don't you elucidate further on this ^ statement, then tell us which party(s) executed that last bit.
You may finish by telling us very precisely and exactly who you should be fearing; don't be afraid to look beyond political ideology.
Calling the bottom 40% lazy is an entirely ignorant statement. I've done the 3 jobs (70+ hours/week) thing. That doesn't solve ALL of one's problems, either...Quote:
Originally Posted by 999969999
How does one take risks when they cannot afford to eat healthy/nutritious food, don't own a home, are behind on their rent, have more debt (because of unmet basic needs) than they can pay back, etc.
I don't begrudge your luck, but your ignorance pains me. If you have nothing to invest, it won't grow.
It worked for hundreds of years before your ancestors and people of that ilk arrived and took their lands, shot most of them and put the survivors inQuote:
Good point. The Native Americans had this land for a lot longer than we had it, but they did almost nothing with it. That is the problem with communism. It just doesn't work.
concentration campsreservations.
No slavery is what made your country 'great'.Quote:
Capitalism is what built this country and made it a great place to live. Abandon it at your own peril.
As for the debt, one lesson my parents taught me is to do everything possible to never go into debt. Don't spend more money than you make. If it means you live really hard, then that's what you do to stay out of debt. My family has always taught me that people who owe debts will never get ahead in life. Every cent you spend in interest is lost to any possible investment purposes.Quote:
Originally Posted by megabytemeThe topic of this thread is "forms of government". I stood up in favor of socialism due to its ability to meet the needs of the masses. You are the one who wants to look dem/rep on this one. The massively rich (which wouldn't have control in a socialist gov.) are the ones who were "too big to fail" here. Nice system. :ermm:Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
Calling the bottom 40% lazy is an entirely ignorant statement. I've done the 3 jobs (70+ hours/week) thing. That doesn't solve ALL of one's problems, either...Quote:
Originally Posted by 999969999
How does one take risks when they cannot afford to eat healthy/nutritious food, don't own a home, are behind on their rent, have more debt (because of unmet basic needs) than they can pay back, etc.
I don't begrudge your luck, but your ignorance pains me. If you have nothing to invest, it won't grow.
You need to look at this way, my ancestors arrived here with nothing but the clothes on their backs. They were worse off than you, and yet they managed to turn it all around. Was it a difficult life them? Of course! But they did it on their own without any help from the government.
And I have seen some extremely lazy people who are on various government handout programs. They do need to get off their asses and go to work. They are abusing the system and taking away funds which could go to the truly needy people who are physically disabled and cannot work.
Compare their "civilization" at that time-- living in tents-- to that of the Europeans. The Europeans were lightyears ahead of them. Why? They weren't communists.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
Quote:
Originally Posted by 999969999Compare their "civilization" at that time-- living in tents-- to that of the Europeans. The Europeans were lightyears ahead of them. Why? They weren't communists.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
With that kind of attitude there is no point of me carrying on this debate. I can understand now why you want your part of the country to remain fair haired, blue eyed and white.
So 9.
Have you gone out into the world to be a self made man or are you living off the sweat of your ancestors? Are you in the position you are in now because of your own hard work or because of the family (membership of which you had no choice in) you were born into?
One of my first encounters with you was about your parents buying you a car. Your attitude was why work to buy your own when someone will buy one for you. You called me a foolish for not letting my father buy me one when I was a young man.
Now I'm seeing you on a high perch saying that people are poor because they are lazy.
Well, they managed to live on the land sustainably for quite a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by 999969999
Indians did not build WalMarts and poison the air with hydrocarbons.
They managed not to turn the midwest into the Dust Bowl.
Stupid communists.
http://www.crawlersmileys.com/img/smileys/lol.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by clocker
You dispute this claim based on a few vacations you took?Quote:
Originally Posted by 999969999
By almost any metric you choose the US trails other developed countries...health, quality of life, education...you pick it, we lose.
We do seem to be the most obese, so there's that.
USA, Fuck Yeah!
And you backstop your own views with U.N studies.Quote:
Originally Posted by clockerYou dispute this claim based on a few vacations you took?Quote:
Originally Posted by 999969999
By almost any metric you choose the US trails other developed countries...health, quality of life, education...you pick it, we lose.
We do seem to be the most obese, so there's that.
USA, Fuck Yeah!
This would be the same U.N. whose Human Rights Council (you know -China, Cuba, Libya and Saudi Arabia?) is about to hear testimony from dis-status-fied Americans about how horrible things are here?
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/11...ights-council/
How much American blood, sweat or money do you figure we'd have to give away to move up on your favored U.N. rankings?
You play the sheep to the U.N.'s beneficent 'shepherd'.
Parasite?!?
More like worker bee.
My official job description, for tax purposes, in my family's business is "Purchasing and Logistics Management"
I'll admit I don't work as hard as some people, but I do work.
Hey, at least I've actually been over there and have seen what their standard of living is like compared to ours, and there is no comparison. I just thought we had crowds at stores and restaurants, and traffic congestion before the first time I went on a trip to Europe while I was still in high school. Little shitty apartments all cramped up together, narrow streets, and the vast majority of the people over there were forced to use public transportation which sucks compared to having your own car and actually being able to drive it without having to deal with traffic nightmares. I've been on 5 trips over there so far, and none of them made me even the least bit interested in moving over there. The only one I found even remotely interesting for future trips was Finland.Quote:
Originally Posted by clockerYou dispute this claim based on a few vacations you took?Quote:
Originally Posted by 999969999
By almost any metric you choose the US trails other developed countries...health, quality of life, education...you pick it, we lose.
We do seem to be the most obese, so there's that.
USA, Fuck Yeah!
And I'm not just comparing the crowds and traffic to Eagar, but also to places like Phoenix, San Francisco, Portland, and Seattle. As bad as they are in terms of traffic, they still don't even come close to European countries. I am always glad to get back home. It makes me appreciate what I have over here.
And if you dislike the U.S. so much, you need to keep in mind that we won't keep you here against your will. You are free to leave at any time.