Palestine Or Israel?

[evilbagpuss]

*sigh* ok Mr calm and collected lets fight this tooth and nail, point by point if we must...

Here are a few choice quotes immediately after rat faced and I dared to say Israel shouldnt kill civilians....

Originally posted by clocker+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Great.

Now, other that the US withdrawing support for Israel and joining in the chorus of wailing, what is your proposal for settling this matter?[/b]

Notice how no one said anything about the US withdrawing support? Wailing? What are you on about?

Originally posted by clocker+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
just stipulated to the US withdrawing all it&#39;s support.
The US has joined you in decrying Israeli aggression against the poor, aggrieved Palestinian people.
[/b]

Poor aggrieved Palestinian people? Is that your idea of "pinning me down"? Again your 100% stuck on the US withdrawing its support issue even though you brought it up in the 1st place. Again we merely dared to suggest that the USA shouldnt ignore the fact that its &#036;&#036;&#39;s are being used to carry out atrocities.

Originally posted by clocker
One day, one week, one month later, another 15 year old human bomb steps on a Israeli bus and blows up innocent Israeli civilians.
The Palestinian "freedom fighters" have raised the intentional targeting of civilians to an art form and I wouldn&#39;t expect them to abandon a tactic that through your intervention has just caused the Israeli&#39;s to lose their biggest supporter.
Who applies responding pressure to the Palestinians now?
Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Iran?
Britain?

Hurry up with your answer, there is a psycho teenager strapping on a plastique filled vest as we ponder.

At this point Im wondering whether I should arrange a paramedic for the heart attack your soon to have. No hostility here eh?

Now for your next point....

Originally posted by clocker
I will take this to mean that you searched and searched but could find no such quote. Primarily because I&#39;ve never said anything remotely like that

Here. Its not my fault you cant recall what you said a short time ago.

Originally posted by evilbagpuss
Fight terrorism. Dont kill innocent women and children

and in response you say.....

<!--QuoteBegin-clocker@
How do you propose to fight terrorism in such an honorable and bloodless way?
Queensbury rules don&#39;t seem to be in effect.[/quote]

Silly me eh? Imagine trying to fight terrorism without killing women and children in missile attacks on residential areas

<!--QuoteBegin-clocker
why not ask/demand this of the Palestinians?
[/quote]

You mean why not ask this of the terrorists? Because by definition you cannot negotiate with terrorists.

I rest my case, Mr "Im not hostile".

[clocker]

*sigh*

[evilbagpuss]

Originally posted by clocker
*sigh*

Dont sulk. You demanded I prove every last word of my previous post. Getting all high and mighty about it when I meet those demands is more than a little irrational.

[j2k4]

Originally posted by evilbagpuss+18 June 2003 - 22:28--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (evilbagpuss @ 18 June 2003 - 22:28)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-clocker
*sigh*

Dont sulk. You demanded I prove every last word of my previous post. Getting all high and mighty about it when I meet those demands is more than a little irrational. [/b][/quote]
From my comfy seat on the sidelines I see a totally different picture.

[Barbarossa]

This topic is going nowhere fast, and I think it should be closed. Everyone has had more than enough say on the matter.

[echidna]

i don&#39;t know which US general it was who made the famous quote during the vietnam war
it went something like;

Originally posted by american with more firepower than sleep+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (american with more firepower than sleep)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>we had to destroy the village in order to liberate it[/b]

i have found this concept [and it&#39;s complete lack of plausible reason] to be endlessly useful in contextualising the actions of US force

i don&#39;t think it is in the nature of US foreign policy to be fair, i just wish a degree of even-handedness would be applied, [or at least a charade of even-handedness]
the support for israel has so much more to do with domestic issues from lobby groups to &#39;defence industry&#39; jobs and with peripheral external issues to do with the manipulation of regional [in]stability for short term financial and political ends, than it has with any desire for peace in the cradle of christendom/islam/judaism

considering the attitude typified by the quote i imagine that collateral damage from the israeli use of US arms would be quite understandable, johnson&johnson sell a lotta band-aids apart from anything else
i also get the impression that clocker and j2k4 and S&A are members of a comparatively small minority of americans who actually care about and consider the situation
and also to the even smaller group who are at all informed as to the history and current politic of the region
i heard today that less than 12% of US college graduates regularly read newspapers, with such high levels of apathy and ignorance [no offence meant people but there are a lot of folk to teach in the US] politics is based upon very simple messages [often with very moral/ethical flavors] and concepts which would be quashed in most other democratic systems are not only tolerated but are the accepted and favoured norm


<!--QuoteBegin-imagine...
NUFC is playing a heavily contested championship match against MUFC, the most powerful and influential referee in the world is to adjudicate the match,
but he is wearing MUFC socks&#33;
and he keeps giving penalties to MUFC while he has run out of cards to issue to MCFC
[/quote]
the betting shops are going to strike :: no-one would trust or believe the outcome

in short it would be a fraud

[i don&#39;t think this is the best example, but the USA is sooooo obviously biased, why would anyone trust it&#39;s judgement on israel v. palestine? especially if you&#39;re a palestine supporter]


colinmac :: of cause this topic is going nowhere fast, it&#39;s about middle eastern politics, way deadlier stalemates have been going on for decades

[clocker]

don&#39;t think it is in the nature of US foreign policy to be fair, i just wish a degree of even-handedness would be applied, [or at least a charade of even-handedness]

I can&#39;t think of any country who&#39;s foreign policy is based on being "fair". "Enlightened self interest" is about the best that you can hope for. I can certainly understand how it could be argued that our current stance does not meet this requirement either.

the support for israel has so much more to do with domestic issues from lobby groups to &#39;defence industry&#39; jobs and with peripheral external issues to do with the manipulation of regional [in]stability for short term financial and political ends, than it has with any desire for peace in the cradle of christendom/islam/judaism

When has there ever been peace in this region? With 3 major religions laying claim to the same plot of earth somebody is always going to feel that they got the short end of the stick. And two of these religions ( not sure about Judaism, I&#39;m not a scholar) don&#39;t particularly leave a lot of room for any other theology. Both Christianity and Islam are aggressively expansionist.

also get the impression that clocker and j2k4 and S&A are members of a comparatively small minority of americans who actually care about and consider the situation
and also to the even smaller group who are at all informed as to the history and current politic of the region
i heard today that less than 12% of US college graduates regularly read newspapers, with such high levels of apathy and ignorance [no offence meant people but there are a lot of folk to teach in the US] politics is based upon very simple messages [often with very moral/ethical flavors] and concepts which would be quashed in most other democratic systems are not only tolerated but are the accepted and favoured norm

This concept, while personally flattering, I think is somewhat flawed. Does the source for what you heard take into account that news is disseminated via more diverse outlets than newsprint?
Out of curiousity, is the circulation of your country&#39;s newspapers growing in proportion to population growth or shrinking?
My impression is that shrinking newsprint readership is a worldwide phenomonon not just a sign of the "dumbing down" of America. Believe me, I am not claiming that as a nation we couldn&#39;t/shouldn&#39;t do much better, I simply question the prevailing attitude that Americans are , as a nation, stupider and less informed than any other "1st world" nation.

[echidna]

1. i agree that foreign policy is not based on fairness, i just think historically it can pay off if you pretend well
2. more than &#39;the three major religions&#39; have co-existed in palestine successfully before. the romans ran the region peacefully for centuries after the fall of the first israeli occupation (the siege of Masada & such) the Phoenician empire did a pretty good job too, and up until the 40s apart from unrelated regional conflict spilling over every now and then [crusades, ottomans, world wars] the region known as palestine or israel has been a notably cosmopolitan and tolerant region of diverse cultural and religious influences. it seems to be when one part of that mix gets power out of balance or parties outside the region take a military interest that it becomes a blood bath. some parties would definitely like to rewrite history so we though that there had always been war there [archaeologists get shot at by extremest orthodox zionists in israel, and grenade attacks on digs have been known :: but we don&#39;t here about that on CNN]
3. i think all of the monotheistic faiths are flawed by their denial of each other and all the polytheists/animists and others, most of the really excessive bad stuff that has been perpetrated in the name of religion has been by monotheists
4. newspapers are still huge here, the number of papers continues to shrink though, i&#39;ve tended to find that american tend to educate themselves about different stuff more, many americans i have know have been very specialist in their knowledge, often at the expense of general knowledge. i agree that we&#39;re probably all getting duller and reading less, but i know where the primary market for faux news, friends and survivor is and it&#39;s all in one nation. all of it counts as &#39;media&#39; in the brave new global economy [i wanna live in a society, not an economy] around here the allies of the noecons are trying to rig a free trade deal with the states which would make your TV our TV [and not at all the other way around]
5. i think that is one of the main problems that anyone has in trying to get across to the US public, the US public is very good at telling [and making sitcoms and movies and music and...] and very good at selling what it tells, but america doesn&#39;t culturally consume very much outside it&#39;s own production, eg. the american market for foreign films is tiny yet the world market of movies is predominantly american, this is the same with TV and music too

anyway, bedtime4me

[Rat Faced]

I agree. One of my main questions to you has consistently been: why not ask/demand this of the Palestinians?

Because the Pallestinians are, by and large INDIVIDUALS.

If we could control individuals like this, then there would be no such thing as murder. Everytime there is an apartment building smashed, the Israeli&#39;s have created another 100+ potential terrorists and have increased their funding. That seems a cockeyed way to "Control" terrorism in the region.

When was the last time the Pallestinian Authority retaliated, while its own offices/police stations and hospitals were getting bombed?

I can&#39;t think of any country who&#39;s foreign policy is based on being "fair". "Enlightened self interest" is about the best that you can hope for. I can certainly understand how it could be argued that our current stance does not meet this requirement either.

I agree with you 100% on this whole paragraph.

When has there ever been peace in this region? With 3 major religions laying claim to the same plot of earth somebody is always going to feel that they got the short end of the stick. And two of these religions ( not sure about Judaism, I&#39;m not a scholar) don&#39;t particularly leave a lot of room for any other theology. Both Christianity and Islam are aggressively expansionist.

The Christians have, by and large given up their claim.....as long as they have full access to the Holy places...(It helps if Israel doesnt blow the churches up too )

Judaism isnt expansionist....in fact I think they are the opposite. Although they will accept converts, its not with open arms (some of the sects wont even talk to other Jews, never mind other religions)

The funny thing is they are all devolved from the same basic religion...the differences being that Islam and Christians believe different people to be the messiah (although Islam does except Christ as a prophet) while the Jews dont think he&#39;s arrived yet....the other 2 major religions dont have this shit, and they are unrelated (Differences between Hindu and Islam in northern India excepted)....but forgive me, i go off topic

From my comfy seat on the sidelines I see a totally different picture.

Well? what picture? Dont keep us in suspenders. Speak up&#33; You usually have no trouble doing this

Oh...And i HAVE to say.........

QUOTE (imagine...)
NUFC is playing a heavily contested championship match against MUFC, the most powerful and influential referee in the world is to adjudicate the match,
but he is wearing MUFC socks&#33;
and he keeps giving penalties to MUFC while he has run out of cards to issue to NUFC

This happens all the time in the Premiership, we&#39;re used to it. The referees are all scared of Ferguson...

As ANYONE that doesnt support MUFC....or play Championship Manager 3. Its fixed, I turned all their players into 4th division crap, and loaded up NUFC with the best Internationals in the world...ManU STILL won the bloody title, and NUFC was still 4th

[evilbagpuss]

@clocker

Try and imagine, if you can, a world reversed....

Palestine is the one favoured by the USA. Jewish people are murdered in their hundreds as laughing Palestinians drop missiles from attack helicopters onto crowded streets. Helicopters and missiles paid for by US tax dollars of course.

The UN is doing its best to stop whats going on but the USA keeps on using its veto to block most resolutions. The media seems largely pro-Palestinian as it reports Jewish suicide bombers and the number of Palestinian dead, whereas Jewish casuaulties are not considered newsworthy and Palestinian atrocities are covered up and left unreported. The brutal 36 year occupation of whats left of Israel doesnt seem likely to end soon.

Now.. think of it like this, if you would support and defend the USA&#39;s actions in this imaginary scenario just as much as you do now.... then I respect you for that. I may disagree strongly with you but at least you&#39;d be applying your views equally to both sides regardless.

I suspect you would be outraged though wouldnt you? So my question is why would that imaginary scenario be any worse than whats happening today?

The only way you could say that imaginary conflict would be any worse was if you believed a Jewish life to be worth more than a Palestinians life.

If that imaginary scenario were happening I would still be here arguing the same points for the Jewish people. Would you still be here arguing the same points, defending the USA&#39;s actions?