Poster
BT Rep: +35
Originally Posted by Barbarossa
Considering the history of the FA cup, that really wasn't a huge upset, tbh
Yes, you are right, but if you watched the match and saw how many chances of scoring Liverpool had..
Also the comeback Liverpool made from this .. beating Inter 2-0 that's very nice! Happy about this result!
en(un)lightened
Fellow named David beat Goliath a while back.
The point of this thread seems to be determining where the Giants upset of the undefeated Patriots falls relative to other upsets.
In that vein, I still believe the Jets victory over the Colts in S.B. III to be the biggest upset.
The game-time spread was something on the order of 19 points, and I have a vague memory of an initial spread of 45, believe it or not.
As an adjunct argument, would anyone care to tell me why/how, in every discussion I've ever heard about which Super Bowl team is the best ever, the undefeated '72 Dolphins are never even mentioned?
In any case, the "Miracle on Ice" must be considered; same with Tyson/Douglas...Max Baer and James Braddock...I could go on, but, considering my ignorance of international contests not involving the U.S., I will demure.
Perhaps some of you could recount some of these lesser-well-known (but nonetheless worthy-of-consideration) contests we are not all aware of?
"Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."
-Mark Twain
Macula.Lutea.
BT Rep: +24
Two reasons.
(1) The Dolphins weren't even the favorites in that SB. That distinction belonged to their opponent, the Redskins.
(2) It is a well known fact among avid NFL historians that the '72 Dolphins schedule was considered a relatively easy one.
"However awkwardly they might navigate the outside world, over the board they were killers." - NYT
en(un)lightened
What's your point?Two reasons.
(1) The Dolphins weren't even the favorites in that SB. That distinction belonged to their opponent, the Redskins.
(2) It is a well known fact among avid NFL historians that the '72 Dolphins schedule was considered a relatively easy one.
The Patriots ran roughshod over the league this year, rewrote the record book for offensive production, yet lost the ultimate game.
Does that make them better or worse than the several single-defeat teams of the past few decades?
Are they better (having lost the Super bowl) than the '72 Dolphins?
"Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."
-Mark Twain
Macula.Lutea.
BT Rep: +24
My point is the undefeated record of the 72 Dolphins is not indicative of their playing strength in comparison to the best teams debated around since their easy schedule paved the way for them to go undefeated in the first place. I looked it up and found out that the overall winning pct of all their opponents that season was .400. They also didn't dominate their playoff opponents (both their playoff games were nailbiters, i believe) which would've put them in the "dominant" pedestal that is prereq for any talk of "greatest team ever".
I think you're putting too much emphasis on the numbers. While noone's arguing that the perfect season of the 72 dolphins is a walk in the park, I would bet my house that they would get trounced by the stifling defense of the 85 Bears, the high powered offense of the 80's 49ers or even the Steelers in the late 70's. All of which are subjective at best but computer game simuls would agree with me.
"However awkwardly they might navigate the outside world, over the board they were killers." - NYT
en(un)lightened
You continue to miss my point, which is that the Patriots, in losing, prove the old saw of, "on any given Sunday, blah, blah, blah".My point is the undefeated record of the 72 Dolphins is not indicative of their playing strength in comparison to the best teams debated around since their easy schedule paved the way for them to go undefeated in the first place. I looked it up and found out that the overall winning pct of all their opponents that season was .400
I think you're putting too much emphasis on the numbers. While noone's arguing that the perfect season of the 72 dolphins is a walk in the park, I would bet my house that they would get trounced by the stifling defense of the 85 Bears, the high powered offense of the 80's 49ers or even the Steelers in the late 70's. All of which are subjective at best but computer game simuls would agree with me.
This did not happen to the Dolphins, yet you give the fact no weight.
Answer me this:
If that Giants team played that Pats ten times in a row, who'd win more games?
Are the Pats not amongst the greatest all-time teams?
I would objectively argue that they are, using as proof their record prior to meeting the Giants, and who could argue otherwise?
This is all so much bunkum, you see.
In any case, while the Pats were given maximum kudos for offensive production, their overweening accomplishment was having won eighteen straight, I think you'd agree.
Again, while I personally don't count the Dolphins amongst the greatest teams, I find it sort of appalling they are never even mentioned.
BTW-
Almost any post-'89 offense would have shredded the defense of the '85 Bears.
The 46 was a wonder for a few years, and the Bears maximized it's utility by way of the (almost accidentally) superb collection of athletes Buddy Ryan had to play with.
"Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."
-Mark Twain
Macula.Lutea.
BT Rep: +24
I did address the issue of the '72 Dolphins perfection. And my stance is that they accomplished that glory not because they were mythical, invincible immortals but because they arguably had a regular season schedule equivalent to playing a bunch of pop warner football teams. Extreme exaggeration but you get my drift. Therefore, the argument that they're the best team ever doesn't hold water especially if you look at the fact that the word dominance isn't synonymous with that perfect season.
As for your original question about how the 72 Dolphins are never mentioned among the greatest teams ever, I found this article to counter that claim:
http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/foot.../greatest.html
Last edited by DefX; 02-28-2008 at 11:33 PM.
"However awkwardly they might navigate the outside world, over the board they were killers." - NYT
en(un)lightened
Hmmm.
Odd that the article comes from the ESPN site (which I certainly don't haunt), but, apart from the discussions I have had myself with others, the rankling omissions have occurred in debates which took place on various ESPN TV programs I have seen.
In any case, good catch, and thanks for the link.
As to the issue of sub-par competition, my contention was that the Dolphins nevertheless were perfect that year, and that alone should have warranted a mention; I was surprised to see the '96 Packers (my team) mentioned, owing to the three losses on their record.
On the other hand, I was gratified to see the '62 Packers ranked 2nd, as their only defeat that year was the Thanksgiving shellacking handed them by the Detroit Lions; they sacked Bart Starr 11 times as I recall, and played so ineptly the game had to be considered an anomaly.
It is precisely such anomalies which, for the most part, preclude perfection.
"Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."
-Mark Twain
Synergy
BT Rep: Bad Rep
Its funny people seem to forget about this team: http://www.pro-football-reference.co...s/min/1998.htm I on the other hand never forget who my team beats, or gets beaten by. (Tampa Bay) This Minnesota team was probably among the greats, but because they also fell short in a superbowl bid, are hardly mentioned either.
en(un)lightened
Yeah, but gee whiz, Rob - they lost to the frigging Falcons.
"Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."
-Mark Twain
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. They also didn't dominate their playoff opponents (both their playoff games were nailbiters, i believe) which would've put them in the "dominant" pedestal that is prereq for any talk of "greatest team ever". 
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