Todays ***video** Death Warning

**3RA1N1AC** · 01-10-2004, 10:54 PM

i don't like the pretense of objectivity or lack of bias. i'm biased, and who isn't? and, well, if i were to take up the complete, formal rules of debate just to shoot the breeze about current events on the k-lite forum, i'd prolly just start to find it too depressingly serious to participate anymore. the plain facts discussed in most World News & Events threads aren't exactly cheerful.

Why not admit that people who take pleasure from war footage exist all around the world.

This is nothing unique to the US. Normal Americans take no pleasure in this type of video, as I already posted.

i don't object to that at all. there surely is a fringe that simply thrills at the idea of viewing snuff videos-- the specific (and seemingly more widespread, acceptable) sickness i was getting at is the sickness of the citizen of a powerful country in times of war, who uses such videos as a sort of mind-altering substance in order to reinforce their so-called patriotism. i'm implying a difference from the fetishism of a snuff fan, because there's a self-torture element involved in inflicting upon oneself videos of one's own countrymen being killed by the enemy. it's sort of like snuff propaganda-- "snuffaganda," if you will.

and i specify the citizen of a "powerful" country as one suffering from a sickness because it's completely unnecessary-- a more powerful country already committed to war is most likely going to win, whether or not propaganda is involved. the underdog draws (relatively) much more strength from having its people obsess over propaganda imagery-- it's not completely pointless, as opposed to a giant getting worked up over midget war footage after he's already stepped on the midget.

by my own admission, i took a cheap shot at a stereotypical figure. that can't be taken completely in earnest. but i also don't think it's too far afield from the truth, that the flesh 'n' blood embodiments of the stupidest and ugliest stereotypes come out of the woodwork and climb to the top of the pile in times like these... and suddenly the opinions of such people are given much more weight than they would in peaceful times.

**hobbes** · 01-10-2004, 11:14 PM

We all have biases, but certainly we can be aware of them.

For instance:

How many times has a referee given a player a penalty on your team and you screamed "unfair". How many times have you felt that "the Refs" were against your team. Funny thing is that fans of the other team, watching the same game felt that the referees were against them, too.

We all recognize that we are deluding ourselves because we are pulling so passionately for our home teams.

Having a bias does not mean you can't recognize it. When bias shows, it totally undermines the credibility of the author. So why ruin a valid point?

**100%** · 01-10-2004, 11:37 PM

This was not as bad as the movie with the americans shooting the wounded iraqi over the wall.
This one was purelly formal - the last one guys just playing around.
What i find interesting with these Real war scenes-is that ive never seen such close range view of what actually happens(news normally censores it)-what is most interesting is hearing the comments-you get involved with the actual soldier.
Very weird

**asmithz** · 01-10-2004, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by Zedaxax@10 January 2004 - 15:37
This was not as bad as the movie with the americans shooting the wounded iraqi over the wall.
This one was purelly formal - the last one guys just playing around.
What i find interesting with these Real war scenes-is that ive never seen such close range view of what actually happens(news normally censores it)-what is most interesting is hearing the comments-you get involved with the actual soldier.
Very weird

Yeah it does seem played out

muchspl2 · 01-11-2004, 01:08 AM

More info about the vid:

------------------

Rules of Engagement

Videotape Shows U.S. Helicopter Crew Firing on Suspected Iraqi Insurgents

By Martha Raddatz

ABCNEWS.com

Jan. 9— Graphic video footage from the gun camera of a U.S. Apache helicopter provides a window into the rules of engagement that often determine life and death in Iraq.

The video, obtained by ABCNEWS, shows grainy images of three Iraqis on the ground handling a long cylindrical object that the helicopter pilots believe is a weapon.
The pilots, from the Army's 4th Infantry Division, ask their commanders for permission to engage, then take the three men out one by one, using the Apache's devastating 30 mm cannons.

Nighttime Scene

The video opens with the helicopter tracking a man in a pickup truck north of Baghdad on Dec. 1, one day after the 4th Infantry Division engaged in the bloodiest battles with Iraqi insurgents since the end of major combat.

The pilots watch as the man pulls over and gets out to talk to another man waiting by a larger truck.

"Uh, big truck over here," one of the pilots is heard saying. "He's having a little powwow."

The pickup driver looks around, then reaches into his vehicle, takes out a tube-shaped object that appears to be about 4 or 5 feet long, and runs away from the road into a field. He drops the object in the field and heads back to the trucks.

"I got a guy running throwing a weapon," one of the pilots says. Retired Gen. Jack Keane, an ABCNEWS consultant who viewed the tape, said the object looked like a rocket-propelled grenade launcher, "or something larger than a rifle."

The pilots check in with their operational commander, who is monitoring the situation. When they tell him they are sure the man was carrying a weapon, he tells them: "Engage. Smoke him."

The pilots wait as a tractor arrives on the scene, near the spot where the pickup driver dropped the object. One of the Iraqis approaches the tractor driver.

Then, within minutes, the Apache pilots open fire with the heavy 30 mm cannon, killing first the Iraqi in the field, then the tractor driver. The pilots then fire at the large truck and wait to see if they hit the last of three men.

When he rolls out from under the truck, one of the pilots says, "He's wounded."

The other pilot says, "Hit him," and the Apache opens fire again, killing the man.

The Apache fires nearly 100 30 mm cannon rounds in all.

Engagement Called Justified

A senior Army official who viewed the tape said the pilots had the legal right to kill the men because they were carrying a weapon. He said there were no ground troops in the area and if the Apache pilots had let the three Iraqis go, the men might have gone on to kill American troops.

Keane agreed. "Those weapons were obviously not being pointed at them in particular, but they [the three Iraqis] are using those weapons in their minds for lethal means and they [the Apache pilots] have a right to interfere with that," he said.

Anthony Cordesman, an ABCNEWS defense consultant who also viewed the tape, said the Apache pilots would have had a much clearer picture of the scene than what was recorded on the videotape. He also said they would have had intelligence about the identity of the men in the vehicles. "They're not getting a sort of blurred picture. They have a combination of intelligence and much better imagery than we can see."

As to whether the Apache pilots could have called in ground troops to apprehend the men, Cordesman said: "In this kind of war, wherever you find organized resistance among the insurgents, you have to act immediately. If you wait to send in ground troops almost invariably your enemy is going to be gone."

Army officials acknowledged that the 30 mm cannons used by the Apache gunners were far bigger than what was needed to kill the men, but said it is the smallest weapon the Apaches have.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/US/apac...deo_040109.html

**hobbes** · 01-11-2004, 04:49 AM

Still, not something you should enjoy watching.

Those Iraqi's killed are still somebodies Daddy, or at least, some Mother's son.

**noname12** · 01-12-2004, 01:33 AM

Originally posted by hobbes+10 January 2004 - 21:39--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 10 January 2004 - 21:39)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-noname12@10 January 2004 - 03:51

Meh, same picture, different leaf, doesnt make it right to show some one being killed then cheering about it.

As, I said, I hadn't watched the video and this comment made me wonder about the content.

Why watch a video of people getting shot, kind of sick, really. [/b][/quote]
Lets clear something up about that, I didnt watch the video, and to me it wouldnt have been something new to hear an American Soldier cheer after he shot some one, seen it on CNN enough times

I was talking about one paticular member who deserved such a response. Read the whole thing

**echidna** · 01-21-2004, 04:06 PM

christ i'm glad that it is so statistically unlikely that many [if any] of the moronic american writters represented here actually vote. (and i really hope that all the sensible writters do vote often)

you inhumanity makes me sick to the stomach

one of you even tryed to claim that US forces don't/haven't attacked and killed civillians in iraq --- which is patent bull shit

wow impressive
the worlds only super-power can kill at will in what is basically a 'developing nation' which has been besieged for 12 years

but then again you choose presidents who sign off on executing mentally retarded prisoners

god i wish you'd have kept chewing tabacy and farming hogs in the hills

yeah, and keep beleiving that your technologies will make you invincible
[maybe that's why people keep refering to the events of 9/11 as a 'bombing' "they bombed us!" it's far more scarey that all of that hot metal was made by boeing in the US of A, kinda different to the way george snr made osama]

now that my pointless rage is vented why don't you kids go play on the highway, or maybe go dry your hair in the bath tub